>>> AND NOW, THE RECENT ANNOUNCEMENT BY PRESIDENT TRUMP AND HIS HEALTH SECRETARY ON AUTISM PLACES HARMFUL BURDENS ON PARENTS AND CHILDREN WITH THE DISORDER OUR NEXT GUEST SAYS.

TRUMP AND ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.

CLAIMED WITHOUT SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE A LINK BETWEEN AUTISM AND TYLENOL USED DURING PREGNANCY.

>> THANKS.

TAYLOR HARRIS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> OF COURSE.

THANK SOS MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOU ARE A WRITER, A MOM, A WIFE.

YOU HAVE BEEN IN ALL THESE LITERARY MAGAZINES BUT I THINK MANY PEOPLE WILL KNOW YOU FROM YOUR MEMOIR, THIS BOY WE MADE, WHERE YOU CHRONICLED YOUR SEARCH TO UNDERSTAND YOUR SON'S MEDICAL CONDITION WHILE ALSO KIND OF REFLECTING ON HOW THIS ALL PLAYS OUT WITH RACE, WITH CLASS, WITH MOTHER HOOD.

FOR PEOPLE UNFAMILIAR WITH YOUR STORY, START WHERE YOU STARTED.

WHAT IS IT THAT CAUSED YOU TO UNDERSTAND THERE WAS SOMETHING ABOUT YOUR BOY THAT YOU DIDN'T UNDERSTAND?

>> THAT IS SO HARD.

I I WOULD SAY THE BOOK STARTS WITH THIS MORNING I WILL NEVER FORGET.

IT WAS APRIL FOOL'S DAY ACTUALLY.

I REMEMBER THINKING TO MYSELF I WISH THIS WEREN'T A JOKE, BUT MY SON CHRISTOPHER WE CALLED TOKES IN THE BOOK AND IN REAL LIFE, HE JUST WOKE UP AND HE SORT OF JUST STARING.

HE DOESN'T SAY ANYTHING.

HE IS ALMOST TWO YEARS OLD.

AND HE JUST DOESN'T LOOK LIKE HIMSELF.

AND YOU HAVE THAT MOMENT I THINK AS A PARENT, AS THOSE WHO MOTHER, WAIT, AM I OVERREACTING?

YOU ARE SECOND GUESSING YOURSELF.

SHOULD I CALL THE DOCTOR?

I DO.

AND WE MAKE AN APPOINTMENT.

LONG STORY SHORT, WE FIND OUT THAT HIS BLOOD GLUCOSE LEVEL WAS A 27.

AND A LOW NORMAL FOR YOU AND I MIGHT BE SOMETHING LIKE 70 OR 80.

WE RUSHED HIM TO THE HOSPITAL.

THEY KEEP HIM OVERNIGHT.

THEY SEND OUT LABS TO THE MAYO CLINIC AND WHAT WE EXPECTED WAS TO HEAR SOMETHING LIKE OKAY, NO BIG DEAL.

YOU CAN MANAGE THIS WITH A SNACK AT BEDTIME.

HE WILL OUT GROW IT.

THOSE LABS YOU KNOW.

THEY WERE FINE.

WE GET THOSE LABS BACK AND IT IS JUST LIKE NO.

THERE ARE THESE OTHER LEVELS THAT ARE WAY OFF.

THE PICTURE I GET IN MY HEAD OF JUST THE MAGICIAN PULLING THE SCARVES OUT OF THE HAT.

IT FELT LIKE EVERY NEW TEST WOULD BE LIKE UH, IT'S NOT THAT BUT THIS ISN'T COMPLETELY WITHIN THE REALM OF TYPICAL.

AND I'M OKAY SPOILING MY OWN BOOK IN THAT WE DON'T FIND A NEAT ENDING.

I THINK YOU KNOW, AS WRITERS, YOU SORT OF WANT TO KNOW IS THIS THE RIGHT ENDING?

BUT WE DON'T GET THAT ONE LABEL THAT I SET OUT TO LOOK FOR THAT I THOUGHT WOULD GIVE ME ALL THE ANSWERS.

>> SO HOW MANY KIDS DO YOU HAVE AND HOW OLD ARE THEY?

>> I HAVE THREE AND THEY ARE 14, 13, AND NINE.

>> KNOWING WHAT YOU KNOW NOW, PARTICULARLY ABOUT AUTISM, BECAUSE TWO OF YOUR KIDS HAVE AUTISM DIAGNOSES.

IS THAT THE WAY IT IS FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE?

OR IS IT DIFFERENT NOW SINCE YOUR KIDS ARE A LITTLE OLDER NOW?

>> I SPENT A LOT OF TIME THINKING OKAY, MICHELLE, WHY DID I FEEL LIKE I COULD FIND THE ONE ANSWER?

WHAT WAS IT ABOUT MY UPBRINGING?

I WAS RAISED IN THE 80s , A MIDWESTERN GIRL.

I GOT A LOT OF STREP THROAT AND IT WAS LIKE YOU GET SICK.

YOU GO TO DOCTOR.

DOCTOR GIVES YOU PINK LIQUID.

YOU FEEL BETTER AND I COULD EVEN SAY EVEN AS I GREW UP, GOT A LITTLE OLDER, STARTED HAVING PANIC ATTACKS.

HAD A DIFFICULT TIME THOUGH I WAS AN A PLUS STUDENT, CLASS PRESIDENT.

IT WAS THEN OKAY.

LIKE, MY PARENTS WERE EXCELLENT.

AND THEY WERE LIKE WE WILL TAKE YOU, YOU WILL GET THERAPY AND MEDICATION AND COGNITIVE BEHAVIORAL THERAPY.

IT STILL FELT THE TOME LIKE THOUGH I KNEW I WOULD BE LIVING WITH ANXIETY, THAT THERE WAS SORT OF AN ANSWER OR A WAY TO GET AT IT OR COPE.

I THINK SOME OF THAT IS TRUE.

BUT AUTISM FOR ME HAS BEEN SO DIFFICULT BECAUSE OF HOW IT CAN LOOK IN KIDS LIKE MINE AND IN MYSELF.

AND SO, YOU HAVE KIDS WHO ARE AFRICAN AMERICAN, THEY ARE HIGH MASKING, THEY ARE GOING TO COME INTO YOUR OFFICE.

MY DAUGHTER IS A HUGE FAN, TELL HER I LOVE HER.

SHE IS THIS GORGEOUS KID, ATHLETIC.

WHAT IS ACTUALLY HARDER FOR ME WITH RAISING AUTISTIC KIDS HAS BEEN GETTING OTHERS TO BELIEVE THAT IT IS ACTUALLY REALLY HARD WITH WHAT THEY DON'T SEE.

I TOOK MY DAUGHTER TO ONE APPOINTMENT AND I WASN'T ASKING THIS DOCTOR FOR A DIAGNOSIS.

I SAID WE GOT A DIAGNOSIS OF AUTISM AND HE LOOKED AT HER AND SAID YOU ARE NOT AUTISTIC.

IF YOU WERE AUTISTIC YOWLEDN'T BE ABLE TO ASK FOR A GLASS OF WATER AND SHE JUST SHUTS DOWN AND SHE IS THINKING I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO THINK OF THIS.

>> THAT'S PART OF THE PROBLEM HERE IS THAT AUTISM PRESENTS IN A WIDE VARIETY OF WAYS AND HERE IS A MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL WHO DOESN'T SEEM TO KNOW THAT.

>> RIGHT.

THERE IS SO MUCH MORE WE NEED TO KNOW.

PEOPLE LIKE ME ARE DRAWN TO SOCIAL MEDIA BECAUSE SOME OF THE LATEST INFORMATION ABOUT WHAT AUTISM CAN LOOK LIKE IS OFTEN LIKE ANECDOTAL.

IT IS SOMEONE SAYING OH MY GOSH.

I FELT LIKE SOMETHING WAS OFF.

AND HERE, NOW I HAVE THIS DIAGNOSIS AND NOW I HAVE UNDERSTANDING AND I CAN START TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO LIVE IN THE WORLD.

>> CAN YOU STEP BACK?

AS BEST AS YOU CAN, HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE WHAT AUTISM IS?

>> YES.

I WOULD SAY DEFINITELY NOT A DISEASE.

IT IS HELPFUL TO LOOK AT SOMETHING LIKE DSM5.

IT IS OFTEN USED TO DIAGNOSE AND SO, SOMETHING LIKE A NEURODEVELOPMENTAL CONDITION.

IF YOU READ STEVE SILVERMAN'S BOOK, PART OF IT THIS NATURAL EVOLUTION OF HUMAN MIND AND BRAIN.

WHAT HAS BEEN DIFFICULT LATELY IS I'M OKAY WITH A FEW WAYS OF DESCRIBING IT AND WILL CONTINUE TO LEARN MORE BUT I THINK AS A BURDEN.

AN EPIDEMIC, A DISEASE THAT NEED TO BE ERADICATED.

THAT IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

THERE ARE A THOUSAND GENES MARKED FOR AUTISM SO I JUST WANT TO BE VERY CAREFUL THAT THIS CAN ALL FALL UNDER GENETICS IN SOME WAYS BUT I SEE IT VERY DIFFERENTLY THAN THE WAY WE HEAR THE ADMINISTRATION TALKING ABOUT IT.

>> SO, THIS ADMINISTRATION HAS CHARACTERIZED AUTISM IN SOME VERY DIRE WAYS.

THE HEALTH SECRETARY HAS DESCRIBED IT AS SOMETHING THAT BASICALLY IS DEVASTATING TO PEOPLE.

THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE WITH AUTISM WILL NEVER GO ON A DATE.

OR NEVER HAVE A JOB.

I WANTED TO ASK FIRST OF ALL, HOW DID YOU REACT TO THAT WHEN YOU HEARD THAT?

>> THERE ARE TWO REACTIONS.

ONE IS, IT IS ALMOST LAUGHABLE.

IT IS ALMOST A SPECTACLE.

THEN I HAVE TO TAKE IT SOMEWHAT SERIOUSLY.

ESPECIALLY BECAUSE THIS IS ABOUT SOMEONE WHO HAS IDEAS THAT ARE NOT ACCURATE BUT ALSO HAS POWER.

THIS IS WHERE I GO BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN WHAT DO I SPEND MY TIME ON.

SO I DID WANT TO TALK TO MY KIDS ABOUT IT.

I DON'T THINK IT IS TRUE OBVIOUSLY.

I THINK THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO HAVE SORT OF HIGHER SUPPORT NEEDS MAYBE THAN I DO OR MY KIDS DO.

WE OFTEN TALK ABOUT AUTISM AS A SPECTRUM.

I THINK PEOPLE THINK IT MAKES YOUR LIFE MORE OR LESS AUTISTIC.

I LIKE THE IDEA OF IT BEING A CONSTELLATION.

THERE ARE ALL THESE DIFFERENT PARTS OF IT AND SOME, WE ALL HAVE DIFFERENT SORT OF STRENGTHS OR CHALLENGES WITH IT.

SO IT IS NOT NECESSARILY OH MY KIDS DON'T LIVE OVER HERE AND THESE PEOPLE ARE WAY OVER HERE.

THERE IS A WAY IN WHICH I COULD APPRECIATE RFK JR.

IF I FELT LIKE, YOU KNOW WHAT?

MAYBE HE WENT ON ONE OF THOSE LISTENING TOURS AND TALKED TO PARENTS OF KIDS WITH HIGH SUPPORT NEEDS AND WHAT HE IS TRYING TO DO IS SAY HEY, LET'S NOT FORGET ABOUT THESE FAMILIES.

LET'S PUT SOME FUNDING INTO GETTING THEM THE CARE.

THAT THEY NEED.

BUT WE ARE LOOKING AT MEDICAID CUTS AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

IT JUST DOESN'T JIVE.

THE MATH ISN'T MATING SO WHAT AM I FORCED TO SAY IS LIKE OH, WHAT'S AT STAKE FOR ME AND HIM AND RFK JR.

HAS BEEN TALKING ABOUT VACCINES CAUSING AUTISM FOR 20 YEARS SO IS THERE A PLACE TO TALK ABOUT HOW HARD IT CAN BE TO BE AUTISTIC IN THIS WORLD?

ABSOLUTELY.

LIKE, I WILL HAVE THAT CONVERSATION ALL DAY.

I DON'T THINK AT ALL, THAT THAT IS WHAT IS HAPPENING.

AND SO I TALK TO MY KIDS ABOUT IT BECAUSE I DON'T WANT THEM HEARING CLIPS AND SECOND GUESSING WHO THEY ARE.

AND THEIR RESPONSE, THEY SHE ACTUALLY PRAYED LORD, IF SOMEONE WHO WAS AUTISTIC HEARD THOSE WORDS FROM RFK, LIKE I PRAY THAT THEY DON'T BELIEVE THEM AND DON'T FEEL BAD ABOUT THEMSELVES.

>> WHAT ARE SOME OF THE WAYS THAT AUTISM PRESENTS?

THAT PERHAPS PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND?

>> ONE OF THE SORT OF STATISTICS THAT I LOVE.

THINKING ABOUT THAT IS ALSO DIFFICULT, CAN BE THERE IS RESEARCH THAT SOMETHING LIKE THE AUTISTIC BRAIN TAKES IN AND PROCESSES 42% MORE INFORMATION AT REST.

I'M NOT SAYING THAT IS FOR EVERY AUTISTIC PERSON.

FOR ME IT FEELS VERY RESONANT FOR MY EXPERIENCE.

THAT IS HOW MY KIDS ARE, TOO.

WHEN THEY ARE VERY LITTLE IT CAN LOOK LIKE SHYNESS.

IT CAN LOOK LIKE THE REPORT CARD MIGHT SAY SHY.

BUT, YOU KNOW, A GOOD, FOLLOWS THE RULES OR A JOY TO HAVE IN CLASS.

AND IT IS BECAUSE THEY ARE SORT OF TAKING IN EVERYTHING AND TRYING TO FIGURE OUT, OKAY.

WHAT IS THE BEST WAY FOR ME TO SORT OF CALM MY NERVOUS SYSTEM?

THEY DON'T HAVE THOSE WORDS AT THREE.

RIGHT?

BUT SORT OF WHAT'S THE BEST WAY FOR ME TO EXIST IN THE WORLD?

GIVEN WHERE I AM?

AND SO FOR, YOU KNOW, ME AND MY KIDS, THAT OFTEN LOOKS LIKE BEING VERY QUIET.

DOING AS YOU ARE TOLD.

AND SORT OF LIKE GETTING OUT OF THE ENVIRONMENT AS SOON AS POSSIBLE TO GET BACK HOME OR TO A SAFE PLACE.

WE HAVE FRIENDS, WE LIKE TO GET OUT.

AND A LOT OF BEING AUTISTIC IS JUST TRYING TO UNDERSTAND WHY DO I FEEL ANXIOUS AND ON EDGE SOMETIMES AND CURIOUS ABOUT OTHER THINGS THAT PEOPLE BRUSH OFF OR DON'T SPEND TIME BEING CURIOUS ABOUT.

>> WHAT ABOUT PEOPLE WITH HIGH SUPPORT NEEDS?

WHAT IS IT BECAUSE THAT SEEMS TO BE WHAT RFK JR.

WAS TALKING ABOUT.

HOW DOES THAT TEND TO PRESENT?

>> I DON'T WANT TO SAY TOO MUCH JUST BECAUSE MY KIDS ARE HIGH MASKING SO YOU CAN IMAGINE ESPECIALLY AS A BLACK MOM, I WORRY ABOUT MY KIDS BEING OUT THERE.

AND BEING SEEN.

SEEN A CERTAIN WAY.

COMING BACK TO RFK'S WORDS THAT IS HARD.

SO I WON'T SPEAK FOR THE HIGH SUPPORT NEEDS BUT I CAN SAY THAT MY GUESS WOULD BE SOMETHING LIKE EXHAUSTION.

CARE TAKING BEYOND WHAT YOU FEEL CAPABLE OF.

IF YOU ARE LIKE ME, YOU HAVE YOUR OWN LIMITS OR FEELING LIKE THERE IS NO BOOK ON THIS.

I READ THE BABY BOOKS.

HOW TO HAVE SCREEN TIME LIMITS.

ALL OF THOSE THINGS SHIFT WITH NEURODIVERGENT KIDS AND THERE IS SO MUCH MORE FOR US TO LEARN.

THAT IS WHY IT IS HARD.

THAT I FEEL LIKE WE WILL TAKE RESOURCES FROM WHAT COULD BE REALLY HELPFUL TO GIVE PARENTS A BREAK IF THEY NEED IT.

TO GET THOSE KIDS ACCESS TO EDUCATION.

OR LANGUAGE.

WHATEVER IT IS.

AND IT IS JUST NOT, I DON'T THINK WE ARE MOVING IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION THERE.

>> THE PRESIDENT ANNOUNCED LABEL CHANGES.

DISCOURAGING TYLENOL, SUGGESTING A LINK TO AUTISM.

AND SAYING PEOPLE SHOULDN'T USE TYLENOL.

>> PART OF IT FELT VERY MUCH LIKE WATCHING A PERFORMANCE.

WATCHING A SPECTACLE.

WHATEVER THEIR MOTIVE IS, AND WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO DO IS GOING TO AFFECT PEOPLE AND POSSIBLY GOING TO COST LIVES SO A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE BEEN LISTENING TO THAT.

I THINK WHAT COMES TO THE FOREFRONT FOR ME, FROM THAT IS THIS QUESTION OF LIKE, OKAY.

CAN WE COMPROMISE WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE ON A DIFFERENT SIDE THAN US?

AND MAYBE.

BUT HOW FAR ARE WE WILLING TO MOVE?

AND I THINK THAT THE QUESTION IS WHO IS BEARING THE BRUNT OF THIS?

I DON'T THINK TYLENOL DOESN'T CAUSE AUTISM.

THE SCIENCE DOESN'T BEAR THAT OUT.

BUT I SUPPORT PRESIDENT TRUMP BECAUSE AT LEAST, YOU KNOW, AUTISM IS BACK IN THE SPOTLIGHT.

I HAVE SPENT A LOT OF TIME THINKING LIKE, CAN I SORT OF JUMP ON THAT PART OF IT?

AT THE VERY BACK OF THE WAGON?

AND I DON'T THINK I CAN.

I DON'T THINK THAT IT IS HELPFUL.

>> I JUST WANT TO BE CLEAR FOR PEOPLE WHO JUST JOINED OUR CONVERSATION.

THERE IS NO CAUSAL LINK THAT HAS BEEN DEMONSTRATED BETWEEN TYLENOL AND AUTISM.

THAT IS CLEAR.

STUDIES SUGGESTED SOMETHING COULD BE CONSIDERED BUT THERE IS NO CAUSAL LINK.

I WANT TO BE VERY CLEAR THAT THE CURRENTLY ACCEPTED MEDICAL ADVICE IS THAT HIGH FEVERS IN PREGNANT WOMEN ARE KNOWN TO BE DANGEROUS.

ONE OF THE THINGS YOU TALK ABOUT IN THE BOOK IS HOW WOMEN ARE PROGRAMMED AND MOTHERS IN PARTICULAR ARE KIND OF PROGRAMMED TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS OR DOESN'T HAPPEN TO THE FETUS AND LATER TO THE CHILD.

>> AND THE MOTHER BLAME, THIS IDEA THAT AUTISM WAS CAUSED BY REFRIGERATOR MOTHERS.

THAT WAS POPULAR BACK IN THE DAY.

THERE IS THE WORK OF LIKE YES.

SHIFTING IT TO MOTHERS.

TELLING THEM TO TOUGH IT OUT.

YOU KNOW.

WE ALREADY KNOW ABOUT BLACK MATERNAL HEALTH AND MORTALITY.

THAT IS A WHOLE AREA OF HOW WILL THIS ADVICE AFFECT THOSE NUMBERS AND TO ME THAT'S LIKE, THAT IS TERRIFYING.

AND THERE IS SOMETHING ABOUT THIS EFFORT FROM THE ADMINISTRATION THAT FEELS LIKE THAT.

BOTH OF RACISM BUT ALSO ABLEISM.

THEY ARE TELLING US IT COULD BE VACCINES AGAIN.

AND WE SHOW THEM HOW MANY YEARS AGO IT WASN'T VACCINES.

AND SO, PART OF IT IS THE DISTRACTION.

LIKE WHY SEIZE ON AUTISM?

I CAN SORT OF GUESS.

RIGHT?

THERE IS SO MUCH CHAOS.

THERE IS SO MUCH DISTRACTION.

THAT IT IS HARD TO KNOW.

IT JUST FEELS LIKE ON AND ON AND ON.

>> THE CDC REPORTED IN 2023 FOR THE FIRST TIME BLACK, LATINO, ASIAN AND AMERICAN CHILDREN ARE BEING DIAGNOSED WITH AUTISM AT HIGHER RATES AND RESEARCH SUGGEST IT COULD IMPROVE SCREENING AND IMPROVED AWARENESS IN HISTORICALLY UNDERSERVED COMMUNITIES.

DO YOU HAVE A THEORY ABOUT THAT?

>> I WILL NEVER SAY THAT I AM THE ONE TO ASK BUT I CAN TELL YOU HOW DIFFICULT IT HAS BEEN TO GET DIAGNOSES FOR MY KIDS AND MYSELF.

I AM DIAGNOSED WITH AN ANXIETY DISORDER BUT ALSO, AUTISTIC AND ADHD WHICH IS NOW A TERM SOME OF US SAY, SOME TERRIBLE THINGS ONLINE ABOUT AUTISM BEING A TREND.

YOUPART OF WHAT IS SO IMPORTANT FOR ME ABOUT MY KIDS KNOWING AND I'M GUESSING YOU KNOW, OTHER PEOPLE OF COLOR KNOWING IS THAT IF YOU ARE A HIGH MASKING AUTISTIC, THE RATE OF SUICIDE AND SUICIDE IDEATION IS LIKE EXPONENTIALLY HIGHER THAN THE GENERAL POPULATION AND I HAVE SOME IDEAS AS TO WHY.

FOR PEOPLE LABELS DON'T MATTER.

THIS IS ONE OF THE REASONS WHY FOR MY FAMILY I THINK IT MATTERS TO BE ABLE TO HAVE SOME UNDERSTANDING OF ME BEING, WHY YOUR BRAIN WORKS THE WAY IT DOES OR WHY, QUOTE UNQUOTE, SIMPLE THINGS THAT OTHER PEOPLE SEEM TO DO SO EASILY ARE HARD FOR YOU.

>> TAYLOR HARRIS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU, MICHELLE.