>>> NOW UP TO $175 BILLION OF REFUNDS COULD BE GIVEN BACK TO BUSINESSES THAT PAID IMPORT TAXES AFTER THE SUPREME COURT RULED PRESIDENT TRUMP'S GLOBAL TARIFFS ILLEGAL LAST MONTH.

BUT FOR MANY SMALL AMERICAN COMPANIES, THE DAMAGE HAS BEEN DONE.

SOME OWNERS ARE DOUBTING WHETHER THEY CAN REALLY CLAIM THEIR MONEY BACK.

FOUNDER OF COPPER COW COFFEE AND CEO SPEAK TO MICHEL MARTIN ABOUT HOW THEY'VE BEEN NAVIGATING THE UNCERTAINTY THIS PAST YEAR.

>> THANKS.

DEBBIE AND SARA, THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US ONCE AGAIN.

>> THANK YOU.

>> SO PEOPLE MAY REMEMBER THAT YOU JOINED US LAST APRIL WHEN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION'S TARIFF SCHEME, TARIFF PROGRAM WAS FIRST ANNOUNCED.

AND YOU TALKED ABOUT JUST WHAT CHAOS IT KIND OF UNLEASHED.

SO I JUST WANTED TO KIND OF GO BACK TO THAT AND JUST ASK, WHAT DO YOU REMEMBER, YOU KNOW, FROM OVER THE COURSE OF THE YEAR?

LIKE WHAT STANDS OUT FOR YOU?

DEBBIE, DO YOU WANT TO START?

>> SURE.

I THINK IT'S FUNNY BECAUSE I'M SURE SARA FEELS THE SAME WAY.

MY COMPANY HAS LIVED VERY MANY DIFFERENT LIVES DRIVEN BY THE TARIFF NEWS.

WHEN WE CAME ON TO THE SHOW LAST, WE HAD JUST BEEN ANNOUNCED THAT VIETNAM WOULD HAVE 47% TARIFFS.

IT HAS TAKEN ON MANY DIFFERENT VALUES SINCE THEN.

OFTENTIMES, YOU HAVE PRODUCT ON THE WATER, AND YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW MUCH IT'S GONNA COST WHEN IT GETS HERE.

IT'S BEEN A REALLY, REALLY DIFFICULT THING WE'VE ALL HAD TO DEAL WITH SINCE WE WERE ON THE SHOW LAST.

>> SARA, WHAT ABOUT YOU?

FOR PEOPLE WHO REMEMBER AND ALSO ENJOY HER PRODUCTS, HER PRODUCT IS BASED IN VIETNAM.

THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT.

IT'S A VIETNAMESE COFFEE, SHE KNOWS THE FARMERS, THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT.

SARA, YOU SOURCE FROM CHINA AND SOME FROM JAPAN AND PERU.

WHAT'S THE YEAR BEEN LIKE FOR YOU?

>> I'D SAY IT'S BEEN WHIPLASH AFTER WHIPLASH.

AFTER SURVIVING THE INSANITY THAT WAS APRIL AND MAY AND BEING ON WHAT'S APP AND PHONE CALLS WITH OUR SUPPLIERS THROUGH ALL HOURS OF THE NIGHT, WE STARTED TO SHIFT OUR FOCUS AND SAY OKAY, ARE THERE OTHER VENDORS IN OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD?

YOU KNOW, WE LOOKED AT EUROPE AND TURKEY, SOUTH AMERICA.

COULD THEY BE POTENTIAL NEW PARTNERS TO US?

AND ALL THESE THINGS TAKE AN EXTRAORDINARILY LONG AMOUNT OF TIME.

MEANWHILE, THERE'S MORE TARIFF PRICES HAPPENING.

YOU KNOW, THERE WAS A QUESTION ABOUT WHETHER EUROPE WOULD FACE NEW TARIFFS WITH REGARDS TO GREENLAND AND WHAT WOULD HAPPEN THERE.

SO I WOULD SAY THE UNCERTAINTY REALLY NEVER EASED UP.

AND I THINK WE'VE BECOME SOMEWHAT ACCUSTOMED TO LIVING WITH CONSTANT ANXIETY AROUND THESE TRADE RULES CHANGING POTENTIALLY OVERNIGHT.

>> YOU KNOW, SOME PEOPLE STILL THINK OF NEW YORK AS THE CENTER OF FASHION IN THE UNITED STATES, THE GARMENT DISTRICT SORT OF AS IT WERE.

REMIND PEOPLE WHY YOU SOURCE FROM ALL THESE DIFFERENT PLACES.

>> YEAH, OF COURSE.

ACTUALLY, WHEN I STARTED MY BUSINESS BACK IN 2013, I PICKED NEW YORK IN PART BECAUSE THERE WAS A GARMENT DISTRICT AND FACTORIES WITH SEWERS.

ONE OF THE MANY WONDERFUL THINGS THAT HAPPENED OVER THE PAST DECADE IS MY BUSINESS GREW, AND WE REACHED KIND OF SMALL, MEDIUM-SIZED BUSINESSES.

AND THE GARMENT DISTRICT SIMULTANEOUSLY HAS SHRUNKEN OVER THE PAST 10 YEARS.

WHILE SMALL BATCH PRODUCTION STILL DOES HAPPEN, IT REALLY WAS NOT AT THE LEVEL OR VOLUME OR I WOULD SAY QUALITY THAT WE WANTED TO OFFER AT MY COMPANY AND THEN LE FLEUR.

WE STARTED WORKING WITH FACTORIES OVERSEAS.

A LOT OF THE NATURAL FIBERS WE LOOK TO MANUFACTURE IN EUROPE.

WHEN WE'RE LOOKING AT SYNTHETIC FIBERS OUT OF JAPAN, WE LOOK TO SOURCE THEM OUT OF ASIA.

AND THAT IS REALLY HOW MUCH OF APPAREL MANUFACTURING WORKS TOGETHER.

THERE'S LITTLE CLOTHING THAT AMERICANS PURCHASE TODAY THAT IS ACTUALLY MANUFACTURED IN AMERICA.

I THINK THERE WAS A SPLIT MOMENT WHERE WE THOUGHT IS THE LONG-TERM VISION HERE, MAYBE IT WILL WILL TAKE 20-30 YEARS, BUT IS THE GOAL TO BRING APPAREL MANUFACTURING BACK INTO THE UNITED STATES?

THAT WOULD COST LITERALLY 10s OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO DO, BUT IS THAT THE LONG-TERM STRATEGY?

I THINK THE WHIPLASH WE'VE SEEN IN THE TARIFFS HAS QUICKLY SHOWN THAT IS NOT GOING TO BE THE CASE.

SO WE DID NOT EVEN CONSIDER BRINGING ANY MANUFACTURING BACK TO THE UNITED STATES.

OUR PATH FORWARD WAS OKAY, WHERE ELSE IF NOT CHINA AND VIETNAM, WHERE ELSE ARE WE GOING TO?

BECAUSE AMERICA DOES NOT HAVE THE RESOURCES TO BE ABLE TO ESTABLISH THE MANUFACTURING WE REQUIRE.

>> REMIND US OF THE STORY OF YOUR BUSINESS.

THERE'S A REASON WHY THAT YOU GOT INTERESTED IN SINGLE-ORIGIN VIETNAMESE COFFEE.

>> MY FAMILY IS HAVE VIETNAM.

I SAW AN OPPORTUNITY AS WE SEE COFFEE GETTING MORE AND MORE EXPENSIVE, HARDER TO GROW, THAT VIETNAM BEING THE SECOND LARGEST PRODUCER IN THE WORLD ACTUALLY HAS A CERTAIN VARIETAL THAT MAKES IT MUCH MORE EASY TO GROW ORGANICALLY.

AND HOW EXCITING THAT WOULD BE TO BE ABLE TO COME INTO THE U.S.

AND BRING SPECIALTY ORGANIC COFFEE AT A MUCH MORE AFFORDABLE PRICE.

I REMEMBER WHEN THE TARIFFS WERE ANNOUNCED, IT WAS ALL OF THOSE KIND OF SAVINGS WE WORKED FOR THE LAST NINE YEARS TO CULTIVATE FELT REALLY ERODEED.

AND IT'S BEEN SUCH A WHIRLWIND EVER SINCE BECAUSE OUR BRAND IS FOCUSED AROUND A SINGLE-ORIGIN STORY.

IT ALWAYS FELT LIKE IT WAS THIS UNLIMITED SUPPLY.

IT'S OKAY THAT WE'RE LIMITING OURSELVES TO A SINGLE ORIGIN.

BUT THEN ONCE YOU HAVE SUCH A HIGH TARIFF ON THERE AND THERE IS SO MUCH BACK AND FORTH ABOUT WHAT IS THE VIETNAMES GOVERNMENT DOING IN RESPONSE?

IS COFFEE GOING TO BE EXEMPT?

WE WOULD HEAR THAT COFFEE MIGHT BE EXEMPT, MAYBE IT WON'T BE.

SINCE WE DON'T GROW COFFEE HERE, WE DO A LITTLE BIT IN HAWAII, BUT IT COULDN'T PUT A DENT IN THE AMOUNT AMERICANS DRINK.

SO IT HAS TO BE IMPORTED.

IT'S REALLY HARD BECAUSE IT FEELS LIKE THESE POLICIES ARE BEING PUT INTO PLACE, AND THEN HOW IT ACTUALLY AFFECTS SPECIFIC INDUSTRIES THAT IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE TO HAVE A TARIFF IS ALWAYS AN AFTERTHOUGHT.

>> YOU WERE TELLING US AT ONE POINT IT WAS THREATENED AT LIKE ALMOST 50%.

>> YES.

>> I MEAN, SORRY, I KNOW IT'S A PAIN POINT HERE.

WOULD THAT HAVE SHUT YOUR BUSINESS DOWN?

>> IT WOULD HAVE BEEN LETHAL.

WE WOULD HAVE HAD TO SHUT DOWN THE BUSINESS.

IT WOULD HAVE BEEN SUCH A DISADVANTAGE COMPARED TO ANY OTHER COFFEE GRIND COUNTRY IN THE WORLD.

>> SARA, YOU'VE SAID THIS A COUPLE TIMES IN DIFFERENT VENUES THAT UNPREDICTABILITY IS THE ENEMY OF BUSINESS GROWTH.

>> 100%.

>> COULD YOU JUST SAY MORE ABOUT THAT?

>> SURE.

I'LL SPEAK DIRECTLY TO FASHION AND APPAREL, WHICH IS WHAT I KNOW.

ANY PIECE OF CLOTHING THAT LET'S SAY WE RELEASE IT ON OUR WEBSITE OR PUT IT IN THE STORES TOMORROW.

IF YOU THINK ABOUT HOW LONG IT TOOK THAT PRODUCT TO GET TO THAT POINT, WE PROBABLY STARTED DESIGNING THAT PRODUCT ANYWHERE FROM 12-18 MONTHS BEFORE.

AND IN ORDER TO ACTUALLY EVEN GET TO THAT POINT WHERE WE'RE THINKING ABOUT DESIGNING THAT PRODUCT OR HAVING TO GO TO FABRIC SHOWS AND PICK OUT THE RIGHT FABRICS, WE'RE HAVING TO GO TO FACTORIES AND MAKE SURE WE HAVE THE RIGHT FACTORY PARTNERS, IT IS REALLY AT LEAST A YEAR TO TWO-YEAR PROCESS JUST LEADING UP TO THE FACT THAT WE ARE DECIDING TO MAKE THAT PIECE OF CLOTHING.

LET'S JUST SAY IT'S A SHIRT.

AFTER WE HAVE THE FACTORY IN PLACE AND WE'VE DECIDED WHICH FABRIC WE WANT TO USE, THEN WE PUT IN THE FABRIC ORDER.

SAY THAT IS BEING MANUFACTURED IN ITALY AND THAT MAY TAKE ANYWHERE FROM TWO TO FOUR MONTHS.

THEN THAT FABRIC TAKES ANOTHER TWO MONTHS TO GET ON A BOAT AND GET TO WHERE YOU'RE MANUFACTURING.

LET'S SAY IN THIS CASE IT'S TURKEY.

AND THEN IT TAKES ANOTHER TWO MONTHS TO MANUFACTURE THERE, AND IT TAKES ANOTHER FOUR WEEKS TO SHIP TO OUR WAREHOUSE IN NEW YORK, AND THEN IT TAKES ANOTHER TWO WEEKS TO GO TO THE STORE.

SO YOU CAN SEE JUST HOW LONG THAT SUPPLY CHAIN IS.

AND I MEAN, THAT IS REALLY ONE OF THE BIGGEST CHALLENGES OF I THINK ANY MANUFACTURING INDUSTRY THAT DEALS WITH PHYSICAL PRODUCT.

BECAUSE THAT LEAD TIME IS SO LONG, WHEN THESE THINGS CHANGE ON A DIME, YOU REALLY HAVE NO WAY TO COURSE CORRECT.

SO IF WE KNEW THAT THE TARIFFS WERE GONNA BE IMPLEMENTED IN TWO YEARS TIME, WE CAN WORK BACKWARDS TO SAY WE KNOW THIS COST IS GONNA BE THERE, SO LET'S TRY TO FACTOR THAT IN.

WHEN IT GETS IMPOSED UPON YOU AND STARTING IN 30 DAYS OR STARTING IN TWO WEEKS, THE PRODUCT IS ALREADY MADE, ALL THE INVESTMENTS HAVE GONE INTO THAT PIECE OF CLOTHING.

IT'S TOO LATE SO YOU HAVE TO RELEASE IT AND TAKE THE HIT ON THE MARGIN AND ULTIMATELY A LOSS.

>> YOU WERE TELLING US THIS CRAZY STORY OF A SPRING LINE LAST YEAR?

>> OUR MAY COLLECTION.

>> ALMOST GOT WIPED OUT.

>> DISAPPEARED OVERNIGHT, 70%.

POOF.

IT WAS A HARD-HIT COLLECTION BECAUSE SO MUCH OF THAT WAS COMING IN FROM CHINA AND VIETNAM.

CHINA AT ONE POINT, THE TARIFFS WERE 154%.

SOMETHING THAT WOULD HAVE COST $100 TO MAKE SUDDENLY WAS GONNA COST $354 TO MAKE.

AND THAT SIMPLY WAS NOT FEASIBLE.

SO WE COULDN'T EVEN BRING IN THE PRODUCT.

A LOT OF OUR FACTUALLY PARTNERS, I MEAN TO THEIR CREDIT, THEY WERE PHENOMENAL PARTNERS TO US.

AND I THINK THEY SAID TO THEMSELVES LET'S PLAY THE LONG GAME HERE BECAUSE THIS IS NOT GONNA BE FOREVER.

THERE WAS A LOT OF TALK OF WHO'S GONNA CALL CHICKEN FIRST.

AND SO A LOT OF OUR FACTORY PARTNERS WERE WILLING TO HOLD ON TO THE PRODUCTS, SOMETIMES FOR SIX MONTHS, SOMETIMES UP TO A YEAR.

AND WE REALLY WORKED TOGETHER TO OVERCOME THIS CRAZY, CRAZY PART OF OUR COMPANY HISTORY.

>> DEBBY, WHAT ABOUT YOU?

THE FARMERS YOU WORK WITH, THE PEOPLE YOU WORK WITH IN VIETNAM.

WHAT KINDS OF CONVERSATIONS ARE YOU HAVING WITH THEM?

DO THEY FEEL LIKE THEY'RE CAUGHT IN THE MIDDLE?

DO THEY FEEL LIKE THEY'RE BEING PUNISHED FOR SOMETHING THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND OR DIDN'T DO?

>> SIMILAR TO SARA, WE'VE BEEN IN BUSINESS FOR NINE YEARS.

YOU KNOW, THESE ARE MANY, MANY YEARS LONG RELATIONSHIPS WE HAVE WITH THE FARMS.

AND HOW WE HAVE HAD TO HAVE THOSE CONVERSATIONS ABOUT WE ARE IN THIS POSITION, WE NEED TO FIGURE OUT HOW WE'RE GOING TO MAKE THE COSTS WORK, HOW WE GET PRODUCT TO OUR CUSTOMERS.

WHAT'S HARD FOR US IS THAT STILL THE MAJORITY OF FOOD AND BEVERAGES SOLD IN STORES, WE HAVE A GREAT E-COMMERCE BUSINESS, BUT WE'RE IN EVERY SINGLE WHOLE FOODS, WE'RE NATIONAL TARGET, AND WE HAD SOLD IT IN AT A CERTAIN PRICE.

AND ALL OF THAT HAS BEEN SHIPPED.

AND YOU CAN'T IN TERMS OF SHIPPED, IT'S ALL BEEN DECIDED.

IT'S ALL BEEN AGREED UPON.

AND YOU'RE NOT REALLY SURE BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT SURE IF THIS IS TEMPORARY.

IF YOU INCREASE A PRICE AND THEN DECREASE IT, THERE'S PENALTIES FOR THAT WITH THE WAY THE WAREHOUSES WORK.

I THINK IT'S BEEN REALLY HARD FOR US TO THINK ABOUT IF WE INCREASE OUR PRICE, HOW MANY CUSTOMERS ARE WE GONNA LOSE?

WHETHER THAT'S SOMEONE WALKING INTO THE STORE OR LOSING YOUR PLACE ON THE SHELF.

AND BEING ABLE TO TRY TO JUST BASICALLY FOOT THE BILL IN THE SHORT TERM SO THAT YOU CAN KEEP THAT STANDING, NOT REALLY SURE WHAT'S GONNA HAPPEN TOMORROW.

WE HAVE NO IDEA HOW MUCH A SHIPMENT IS GONNA COST WHEN IT LANDS IN THE PAST YEAR.

THAT'S SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN REALLY INTERESTING, THAT MY WHOLE TIME WORKING IN VIETNAM, IT'S ALWAYS FELT LIKE THE U.S.

MARKET HAS BEEN CONSIDERED RELATIVELY THE GOLD STANDARD.

SOMETHING THAT EVERYONE WOULD LOVE TO PARTICIPATE IN, PARTICULARLY IN COFFEE.

THAT SENTIMENT IS REALLY CHANGING.

WHILE WE HAVE REALLY STRONG RELATIONSHIPS WITH OUR SUPPLIERS TODAY, WHEN WE'VE TRIED TO ONBOARD SOME NEW SUPPLIERS, WE'VE HAD PEOPLE SAY CATEGORICALLY THEY DON'T WANT TO WORK WITH AMERICAN COMPANIES.

THEY'RE TERRIFIED OF THE VOLATILITY AND HOW THAT HURTS THE OPTIONALITY FOR BUSINESSES TO BE ABLE TO GET THE BEST MANUFACTURING, QUALITY, PRICING FOR OUR CUSTOMERS.

>> THEY SAY TO YOUR FACE WE'RE NOT DOING THAT?

>> LITERALLY.

I'VE LITERALLY HAD MANUFACTURING SAY GIVEN ALL OF THE TARIFF, GIVEN ALL OF THE TARIFF NEWS, THAT WE ARE NOT INTERESTED IN EXPANDING INTO THE U.S.

MARKET.

>> WOW.

JUST TO BE CLEAR FOR SOME PEOPLE WHO STILL MAY NOT GET THIS, YOU PAY THE TARIFFS.

IS THIS CORRECT?

>> YES.

>> YOU ARE THE ONES WHO PAY THE TARIFFS.

THE TARIFFS HAVE TO BE PAID BEFORE YOUR PRODUCTS COME INTO THE COUNTRY.

>> EXACTLY.

>> YOU DON'T HAVE TO TELL ME.

I WOULD BE INTERESTED, HOW MUCH DO YOU THINK YOU PAID IN TARIFF FEES?

>> HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS IN TARIFFS LAST YEAR, UNEXPECTED.

THAT'S PEOPLE'S SALARIES.

THERE'S A LOT OF THINGS.

IT'S THE MARKETING SUPPORT THAT WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO GET A SMALL BRAND OUT THERE THAT'S NEW.

THERE'S A LOT OF THINGS THAT WE REALLY HAD TO MAKE HARD CHOICES AS THOSE TARIFFS STARTED TO REALLY ROLL IN.

AND WE KEPT EVERY DAY BECAUSE WE'D HEAR RUMORS THAT COFFEE WOULD BE EXEMPT, BUT WE PAID THOSE TARIFFS FOR I BELIEVE IT WAS SIX MONTHS.

>> SO THAT BRINGS ME TO MY NEXT QUESTION.

THE SUPREME COURT STRUCK DOWN THE PRESIDENT'S TARIFFS, TARIFFS PROGRAM IN ITS CURRENT FORM.

WITHIN HOURS, THE ADMINISTRATION SAID THERE WOULD BE THIS NEW ACROSS THE BOARD TARIFF USING A DIFFERENT TRADE LAW.

INITIALLY, 10%.

SIGNALING IT COULD RISE.

BUT SOME COMPANIES ARE ALREADY ASKING FOR REFUNDS.

DEBBIE, ARE YOU GOING TO ASK FOR A REFUND?

FedEx, I CAN NAME FedEx BECAUSE THIS IS A PUBLIC ISSUE.

FedEx HAS SAID THEY WANT THEIR MONEY.

>> OH, WE WANT OUR MONEY BACK.

THAT WAS ONE OF THE FIRST CALLS WE MADE.

WE SPOKE TO OUR LAWYER.

YOU KNOW, WE SAID WHAT DO YOU THINK THE CHANCES ARE?

LET ME BE CLEAR.

I'M NOT HOLDING MY BREATH.

I THINK WE SAW THIS WITH ERC DURING COVID.

IT ULTIMATELY TOOK TWO, THREE YEARS.

AND I KNOW THAT PROCESS WAS AN ABSOLUTE DISASTER.

AND I'M NOT SURE WE'RE EVER GONNA SEE OUR TARIFFS BACK AGAIN, BUT I'M WITH DEBBIE ON THIS ONE.

WE WERE ESTIMATING THAT WE PROBABLY SPENT SOMEWHERE BETWEEN A MILLION AND TWO MILLION TARIFF DOLLARS.

THAT HAS COST US JOBS.

WE'VE HAD TO ELIMINATE ROLES AND PASS ON SOME OF THE COST INCREASE TO THE CUSTOMER.

IT HAS BEEN NET NEGATIVE.

>> UH-HUH.

>> AND I'M JUST, I JUST WANT TO KIND OF PUT THAT INTO VERY, VERY CONCRETE TERMS BECAUSE I THINK, YOU KNOW, THE THOUGHT COMING OUT OF THIS WERE THE TARIFFS WERE GONNA SUPPOSEDLY FUND SOMETHING INCREDIBLE.

AS A CONSUMER, I HAVE NOT FELT THE BENEFITS OF THE TARIFFS IN MY DAY-TO-DAY LIVING.

>> DEBBIE, IS THE SAME TRUE FOR YOU?

>> SO MANY OF US VIEW THE TARIFFS AS POTENTIALLY TEMPORARY.

A LOT OF US HAVE JUST KIND OF FOOT THE BILL.

THE SAME WAY IF YOU'RE A SMALL FAMILY AND YOU HAVE SOME TYPE OF BIG CRISIS HAPPEN, DO YOU SELL YOUR HOUSE RIGHT AWAY?

NO.

YOU SPEND YOUR SAVINGS AND ASSUME THAT THINGS ARE GONNA GET BETTER.

AND I THINK A LOT OF GREAT BRANDS ARE GOING TO BE AT A BAD CROSSROADS AND I THINK PEOPLE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO RAISE THEIR PRICES AS WE LOOK INTO 2026.

YOU'LL SEE PRICES RAISE A LOT FROM THESE TARIFF DYNAMICS.

>> YOU HAVE FIGURED IT OUT.

THE FACT IS, YOU'RE BOTH STILL HERE.

YOU'VE KEPT YOUR BUSINESSES GOING.

AND YOU KNOW, YOU'VE HAD NEW SORT OF PRODUCTS COMING OUT.

SOME PEOPLE MIGHT LISTEN TO YOU AND SAY YOU GUYS ARE FIGURING IT OUT.

SO, YOU KNOW?

SHORT-TERM PAIN, LONG-TERM GAIN MAYBE.

>> I WOULD SAY, YOU KNOW, OUR TEAMS ARE EXTRAORDINARILY RESILIENT.

AND I AM SO PROUD OF THEM AND PROUD OF US FOR HOW WE'VE MET THE MOMENT.

AND IT'S BEEN A REAL CHALLENGING YEAR.

BUT WE'RE HERE AND WE'RE STILL STANDING.

I AM SO PROUD OF THAT.

I WILL ALSO SAY RESILIENCE IS NOT A STRATEGY.

RESILIENCE IS NOT WHAT GROWS THE COMPANY.

WE'RE HERE TO SCALE BUSINESSES.

WE'RE HERE TO ACHIEVE, YOU KNOW, MORE PROFITABILITY TO BE ABLE TO HIRE MORE PEOPLE AND REALLY GROW THE BUSINESS AND DELIVER REALLY FABULOUS PRODUCTS TO THE CUSTOMERS WHO LOVE THE BRAND.

YOU KNOW, THAT'S THE DREAM.

THE DREAM IS NOT SURVIVAL.

AND SO I THINK THE TARIFFS OVER THE PAST YEAR HAVE JUST BEEN, IT FEELS KNEECAPPING.

AND HAS CERTAINLY DELAYED THE DREAMS THAT I'VE HAD FOR THE BUSINESS FOR AT LEAST A YEAR IF NOT LONGER.

>> DEBBIE, WHAT ABOUT YOU?

>> I AGREE.

I THINK IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO HAVE A STRATEGY IN THIS AMOUNT OF UNPREDICTABILITY.

AND I THINK THAT'S GONNA STIFLE INNOVATION, WHETHER THAT MEANS WITHIN COMPANIES LIKE SARA AND MY OWN WHERE WE HAVE STRIPPED DOWN OUR TEAMS DUE TO ALL OF THESE TARIFF COSTS TO BE ABLE TO JUST FIGHT ANOTHER DAY.

ALL THE WAY TO PEOPLE NOT BEING ABLE TO START NEW COMPANIES AND BRING NEW IDEAS TO LIFE BECAUSE IT'S SUCH A DIFFICULT ENVIRONMENT TO BE ABLE TO START AND GROW A BUSINESS.

>> DEBBIE AND SARA, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> TAKE CARE.

THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.