(upbeat music) - [Announcer] This is a production of PBS Charlotte.

- Straight ahead, please join me for a conversation about the latest developments in Charlotte's affordable housing.

We sit down with those on the front line working to give people access to reasonably priced housing.

"Carolina IMPACT: Seeking Unity" starts now.

- [Announcer] PBS Charlotte presents a special "Carolina IMPACT: Seeking Unity."

(dramatic music) - Good evening.

Thanks so much for joining us.

I'm Dara Khaalid, and welcome to our special "Carolina IMPACT: Seeking Unity."

Affordable housing is one of those topics we just can't seem to get away from, especially since here in the Charlotte region, the issue continues to worsen, making it hard for people to find a place to live at a decent price.

Now affordable housing is described as spending no more than 30% of a household's income.

The newest data from UNCC'S State of Housing in Charlotte 2024 report shows that the median home price rose 3.76% from around $414,300 to around $429,900 in September of 2024.

Now price tags like this have prompted some in our community to fight for housing that's more affordable.

Let's meet a few of them starting with Reverend Dr. Derrill Blue, Pastor of Little Rock AME Zion Church who's using his church property to provide affordable housing.

Next up we have Rick Gilbert, Executive Director of the non-profit Home Again Foundation, an organization that provides affordable housing for those with low income or who are at risk of becoming homeless.

Lastly, we have Juan Powell, a developer and the Mid-Atlantic Senior Vice President of Real Estate Development with the Community Builders.

It's a company that builds affordable housing.

So let's jump right in by taking a look at some of the recent news that could improve the affordable housing issue in Charlotte.

Now city council leaders are looking at ways to change zoning restrictions that are making it tough for developers to create affordable housing.

Now one way is by letting duplexes, tri-plexes and quadra-plexes be built in places that currently have high density housing.

Now in some of those zoning districts, the regulations prevent this type of housing.

So, Juan, for you as a developer, help us understand this issue a little bit better.

- Yes, first of all, I certainly commend the leadership within Charlotte to recognize the impact that zoning laws have had.

In many areas, they serve a public benefit, but historically there's been a downside to zoning laws in that they've restricted the creation of housing, particularly affordable housing.

And so to the extent that we're now operating in a climate where there's more flexibility on density, it allows us to really to expand the amount of affordable housing in a given area.

And as housing choices expand and housing supply expand, it very much gives us the opportunity to create more affordable housing.

- And Juan, what do you say in response to those who argue that this isn't an effective solution, and it just raises property taxes for everyone, particularly those who've been in the neighborhood for years?

- Yes, and I think that's part of the discussion because what happens in most municipalities is it's a multiple step process.

One step is from a regulation perspective where the zoning laws are changed to allow such creation, and then we do have to look at what happens to existing residents in a community.

Can things happen or be put in place that would really start to limit the adverse impact on those residents?

And different municipalities have come up with a lot of forward thinking programs.

I mean, for example, some municipalities have programs where residents who've been in their homes X number of years have their property tax increases limited by a certain percentage over a number of years, so that those residents do not experience spikes in property taxes.

Other municipalities have expanded some of the protections for senior citizens who are particularly vulnerable with property tax increases.

And so municipalities do have mechanisms that they're exposed, if they're used can really help with some of these property tax increases that may occur.

But it's really only part of the process.

We do need to look at the zoning.

We do need to look at the implications, the impacts once the zoning laws are put in place, and then try to work to remediate any adverse impacts on the residents, and that can certainly be done.

- All right, thank you for that, Juan.

And now directing my next question for you, Reverend Blue.

So another way that council members are looking to make building affordable housing a little bit easier is by letting religious facilities and schools build housing on their property without having to get that approval from city council.

So as a pastor, someone who's already allowed affordable units to be built on your property, is this a game changer?

- I think it is definitely helpful.

We've seen the benefit within our local residents who moved into our property.

We have 105 units, and of the 105, we were intentional about making sure that at least half of the units were affordable, and of the 105, 53 of the units are considered affordable.

And so we have a 30/60/80 AMI.

So I think this is a game changer, and it would definitely help those faith-based organizations and schools if they do have the property to move forward because like I said, we've seen the benefit for those who could not afford to live in Uptown.

- Yeah.

- But because we had the space, we were able to create an opportunity for them to move into a space that otherwise I don't think many will be able to move into.

- And what kind of response have you gotten from the tenants and those who've moved in?

- Well, because of proximity, we've made it easier.

We're right on the bus line.

And then also we're close to recreation.

So there are a lot of opportunities for the tenants who live at Varick on 7th, and it has been a great response.

That's something that we pride ourself in, finding out how can we make this better for you and what can we do to assist you and to really just enjoying the space.

And so the tenants, so far so good.

- Right, now Juan, focusing back on you here for a second.

So last season here at PBS Charlotte, we covered a story on how empty office space in uptown is being converted into housing.

So a lot of those vacant spaces were the byproduct, as you know, of the pandemic with many folks working from home.

But however, city council leaders are now eyeing this as a way to tackle the affordable housing issue.

So as a developer, Juan, is this an attractive option to create affordable housing or is it more of a repellent for developers due to the costliness, you know, having to rewire whether that's electrical, plumbing, windows, things of that nature?

- Yes, it's very much an option in a market such as Charlotte, which had office vacancy around 7% four years ago.

And that vacancy has soared to around 25%, you know, midway through 2024.

And so when you have that much vacant space, it's really important for any city to look at how to redeploy that space to keep it in production.

And also from a sustainability perspective, it costs a lot of resources to build new housing.

And so to the extent that we can start to look at existing buildings that are not being, you know, fully utilized, it really does give us a head start in the creation of housing because there is existing structures that we can use, and inevitably we have to look at certain buildings are more adaptable to others, depending upon footprint, depending on windows, depending on systems as you mentioned.

But overall, we really do believe that it's a good tool, and we're seeing a lot of it across the country.

- And Rick, for you, what are some other non-traditional living spaces that your organization has its eye on right now that could be used to help with this affordable housing issue?

- Well, thank you so much.

Out on Cochrane Drive in uptown Charlotte, we have a small beginnings community with a house in front and a house in back that's 50% smaller.

And it is, I've been told by the VA, it's the most affordable in the whole United States.

We rent these out.

They rent a, sign a one year lease along with supportive services.

Our smallest one is $480 a month including utilities.

And our biggest one, our three bedroom, two bath, we ran up for $1195 including utilities.

So we are making sure we are very affordable and sticking to our mission statement, and we don't expect to make any money from the rent.

It all comes from grants and people donating on a monthly basis.

And that's how we can make this keep growing.

- And what kind of a difference would you say it's made in the lives of those you're helping?

- Oh my gosh, it's changed their lives completely.

We could see 'em when they first moved in.

- [Derrill] Right.

- Yes, we saw 'em when they first moved in, before they moved in, and then when they moved in, they were so excited to have their own place.

But then right after that for like two weeks, they still kind of went like looking over the shoulder and not being, feeling quite safe yet.

But it's a community now.

I mean, it was built to be a community, and they all look after each other, and now you can see a complete change.

I mean, they all just have so much dignity and pride of having their own place.

You know, these are houses, you know.

We call 'em cottages, and they're just unbelievable.

So proud to be there.

- Perfect, and shifting gears a little bit, but staying with you, Rick.

So when it comes to NOAH Homes, those that are defined as naturally occurring affordable housing, which is defined by the Charlotte Mecklenburg Housing and Homelessness Dashboard as privately owned and operated rental housing that does not require a subsidy to make them affordable for low income households, how can this be used as a solution, those NOAH homes, how can that help in the fight of affordable housing?

- Just because of how low the price is, you know, we do take subsidized housing certificates, but they're all paying their own way, whether it's social security disability, but we have it to the price that they can afford, 30% or less of their income, so.

- And in situations like that, and feel free Juan and Reverend Blue to jump in, but whenever we have those homes that are affordable, what else does that allow for people to do and budget out in their daily lives?

How does that provide some financial freedom in other ways?

- As we know, many have been impacted because of inflation, and it allows people not to have to decide between rent, groceries and just everyday living.

And so I think as you were just saying, it just creates so many opportunities for individuals just to live a life without having to stress about just trying to make it on an everyday basis.

And so if they want to go out to have some recreation or enjoy something with their family, it creates new opportunities that sometimes or otherwise they would not have those opportunities to go out and just to enjoy.

So we've seen that in our communities too, with those who were able to move in with the 30%, it has changed and set up, you know, a trajectory to help them to get out of, I guess, the position that they were currently in.

So it gives 'em new opportunity.

- Juan, did you have anything that you'd like to add to that in terms of that financial freedom that folks have?

- Well, yes, and I'd look at it also from a little bit more of a macro perspective in the sense that there are NOAH properties in Charlotte and other communities, and one of the challenges is that when these properties come on the market, who's buying them and what's the commitment to maintaining affordability over the long run?

And that's really where mission-based nonprofits, others with commitments to affordable housing, to the extent that organizations such as this have the, really the resources to really buy, obtain, purchase these buildings, it really does afford the residents, both currently and in the future, the opportunity to stay in affordable housing because it's naturally occurring.

It doesn't take subsidies.

It doesn't take low income housing tax credits.

And so it becomes a great tool for the community to really expand the affordable housing stock without additional resources, which is really important.

- Perfect, and kind of staying in this arena here, Reverend Blue, from that economic standpoint, is there anything else that you can add when it comes to those NOAH homes?

Kind of like Juan said, just allowing for something that's already a living space, that economic impact or that economic benefit that we're seeing from that?

- I think it goes to one of your previous questions that you asked.

I think that's one of the important reasons why faith-based organizations need to be more involved in these situations because it goes back to those who have a mission to make sure that others have an opportunity to live in affordable housing.

And so we can use our spaces, land, property to purchase or to acquire, to build the houses, then we know we have a mandate to make sure that we do what's best for the community.

And so, and I think in turn it has a greater economic impact on our community if we remember our mission.

- Perfect, and Juan, I wanna switch back over to you and just dig a little bit into interest rates and how that plays a role in affordable housing.

We know that the Feds have lowered the rates twice recently, so what impact will that have?

- Yes, thank you Dara.

It certainly has a positive impact.

Interest rates very much impact housing production, including the production of affordable housing.

And the greatest component is that the benefit on short term rates such as when the Federal Reserve reduces rates, it impacts our construction interest amount.

And to the extent that we can save money in that space, it does help with affordable housing.

Unfortunately, one of the major components of affordable housing is longer term debt.

And this is more comparable to thinking about your mortgage on your personal home.

And the mortgage rates are more tied to long-term interest rates than short-term such as 10-year treasuries.

And so over the course of the last year, unfortunately long-term rates have actually increased versus decreased, and so while there's been some, you know, moderate benefit on housing production as a result of interest rates, we really will not be able to see meaningful impacts until longer term rates start to subside.

And that's really the next challenge that we're facing.

- And do either of you, Rick or Reverend Blue, have anything to add to that, what you've seen in terms of interest rates and that impact with your organizations?

- Yes, it's like he said, it's very hard right now to, you know, purchase land or actually, you know, get what we want to make it so affordable.

You know, we're looking for land every day, and we're actually getting ready to start working on our next community.

But at the same time, you know, if the interest rates were lower, we could even be helping people even more.

But I do wanna reflect on our residents.

Every one of them have different needs.

Some are in their 20s all the way up to their 60s, and with our supportive services, we've helped some people get their GED and then from there we've helped 'em get their, taking college classes and then working from home classes or job.

And it's been very exciting to see them grow that way.

But then other people, they've had different needs.

We've helped 'em get the services that they deserve, whether it's for veterans or whether it's for older people that just need those, deserve what they should be getting.

So very excited about that, and we've got a proven track record, coming up on four years now of the community, so.

- And what does that mean to you, seeing the impact, and you're seeing these real people who are, whose lives are changing every day.

So for you, what does that mean?

- Oh, it just makes me feel so much better.

You know, I mean really good, and you know, when I first got into this, you know, I said once we get somebody off the street or it's not only off the street, but whether they're in a weekly rental or in a shelter or on a family member's couch, you know, to where they'll never end up back that way again once they're in with Home Again, right?

You know, that's our mission, that's my mission, that no children, once they become with Home Again, they'll never experience homelessness ever again.

You know, and I'm so proud of that, that's actually going on, you know?

So, and we're gonna stick to it, and we are working with certain residents that would like to get home ownership.

We have a couple right now that have been there since, to where they are ready in line working with banks and getting their credit score up and getting their credit cards paid off to where they can save money also and get ready for home ownership, so very excited about that.

- Have you all had any residents who are thinking of the next steps like that as well?

- Well, with our property being relatively new 'cause we just opened in March of 2024, that is conversation that we're beginning because long term, it is about helping people to move from rental property into home ownership, and it helps to create generational wealth.

And so that is something that we are going to begin to work on because we want people to move from that space to their own property.

You know, that creates other opportunities for them.

So yes, we will be doing that.

- And do you all have any future plans of expanding anywhere else across Charlotte or even the outside counties?

I know a lot of folks are looking at, you know, whether it's Rock Hill or Fort Mill or just trying to, Cornelius, just trying to kind of get out of the main city area.

Have you guys thought of any other areas?

- We are in planning stages now, having conversations to really see what we wanna do next.

One of the main things is really doing the research to see where the greatest need is.

And so that's where we are.

We've seen it worked, and so we're learning from our first project, and then we're kind of going from that.

But it is something that we are exploring.

Had great partners in the first build, and you know, continue to have those conversations and say how can we expand this in other places?

And where, like I said, is the greatest need?

Where do we need to explore and expand?

Yeah.

- And Juan, I'd be interested to hear from you all for your organization, the Community Builders, what do you guys have your eye on next in the Charlotte area or where are you continuing to sort of spread your growth here now?

- Yes, and so Charlotte's obviously one of the markets that we operate in, and we consider it to be a very strong market.

We certainly consider the support of city council and leadership for affordable housing to be really a great tool that, you know, can facilitate housing.

But if I could, I'd like to maybe circle back to one of the last comments, which spoke to just the continuum of financial growth for residents.

We too have been very active in the space of moving residents from rental housing to home ownership.

And thanks to a grant that the Community Builders has received from Fannie Mae, we've really been very active in helping our residents in that continuum.

And so we too think it's very important that people who are engaged in affordable housing are looking at it holistically and understand the importance of generational wealth creation, financial self-sufficiency, and really work with the residents to try to move along that continuum so that they can enjoy advanced economic fruits.

- And then for you, Juan, being in this business for as long as you have, what is that like for you?

I know we heard from Rick and Reverend Blue about what it means to them, but seeing people's lives change and knowing that you have a role in that, what does that mean to you as a developer being able to watch that expansion and lives being changed?

- It's incredibly rewarding.

Everyone who operates in this space understands the impact that we have on families.

- [Derrill] Right.

- The impact that we have on lives.

That this is not a bricks and mortar type business.

This really is a people business.

When you can work with families, children, senior citizens and improve the quality of their lives, advance them in their mission, whatever their objectives are, it's just phenomenally rewarding.

And so I really commend you, your station for taking the time to put this on the forefront.

It is a matter that impacts everyone.

- Right.

- People are at all stages of life.

So I commend you for taking the time to focus on affordable housing and its importance.

- [Derrill] Yes, - Absolutely, and thank you all for being here as well.

But as we wrap up here, Rick, are there any other innovative ways that you believe the affordable housing issue can be addressed that we didn't mention tonight?

- Really just getting people to understand the homelessness.

That it's not, when people hear homelessness, I mean people think of the panhandlers or people think of the people on the street corners.

That's not all it is.

That's just a small percentage.

It's the people that are actually, you know, it could be someone's brother or sister or family member.

- [Derrill] Right.

- That just went through some bad times, and you know, they might be on a family member's couch or in a shelter because it just didn't work out.

They went through a separation.

But the biggest thing right now that's going on is because of the cost of rent is going up.

It used to go up like $50 a year.

Now it's going up four or $500 a year for a rental property, and who can afford that?

I have people with, when they call 211, Home Again Foundation comes up, and my phone's going off constantly, and it, you know, you feel really bad, and I just wanna help everybody.

But right now it's, this is, we all gotta come together as a community and, 'cause there's so many people that need help right now.

And one of the other questions was I am looking at Union County.

I wanna do more in Charlotte, and I'm looking for land every day.

I'm really hoping to build up on 40 acres down in Union County.

- [Dara] Awesome.

- Where we can have a daycare and two or 300 families there, general store and just, it's to help a lot of people.

- Sure.

- I'm very excited about that.

- Well, I wish that we could talk a little bit longer, but we are out of time, and I wanna thank each of you for participating in our conversation tonight, and to everyone at home, thank you for joining us for this Special "Carolina IMPACT: Seeking Unity."

Good night.

(dramatic music) - [Announcer] A production of PBS Charlotte.

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