GEOFF BENNETT: In her new book,# award-winning novelist Namwali## Serpell takes on one of the towering figures# in American literature, Toni Morrison.

Serpell guides readers through# Morrison's extraordinary body of work,## from her celebrated novels, to# her criticism, poetry and plays,## offering close readings that illuminate# the depth of Morrison's imagination,## innovation and craft.

And it asks what it means# to read Morrison with fresh eyes in our time.

I recently spoke with Namwali# Serpell about her book "On Morrison."

Namwali Serpell, thank you for being here.

NAMWALI SERPELL, Author, "On Morrison":# Thank you so much for having me.

GEOFF BENNETT: In this book, you focus# on the entirety of Toni Morrison's w.. the 11 novels, the play, beyond.

And early in the book, you write: "I# never met Morrison.

I never tried to## either.

I have loved knowing her through# reading her over the decades of my life."

Why was it important to establish that distance# at the beginning to make clear that the work,## not the woman, was the primary focus?

NAMWALI SERPELL: Thank you# so much for that question.

Morrison herself had a version to what she# called biographical writing.

She thought## that human beings had a kind of copyright on# their selves.

And so she said, for her, writing## was very much about invention, imagining someone# from the curl to the full human being, she said.

She often advised her creative writing# students, I don't want to hear about your## little selves.

Don't write about yourself.# I want you to write about other people.

And when she contracted to write a memoir,# she ended up canceling that project,## because she said, my life's not that interesting.

So I sort of feel like I have the privilege# of getting to know Morrison through her work,## in a way, because she gives us that# permission.

Reading and writing were## also so foundational to what she believed and# to how she herself related to other people.## She said, writing for me is a# slow and advanced form of reading.

And so, in that sense, I felt that kind of# literary relationship was something that I really## wanted to unfold in my analysis of her work.# Rather than thinking about her as this kind of## monument to Black excellence, I wanted to# really dig in and play with her language.

GEOFF BENNETT: And her work is so often# understood to be and described as difficult,## sometimes as a criticism, sometimes as a warning.

And in the book, you argue that# the difficulty isn't a flaw;## it's really a demand placed on the# reader.

Tell me more about that.

NAMWALI SERPELL: Morrison was very good# at articulating why she did the things## that she did in terms of her choices, her# formal choices, the choices of design.

And she spoke about, for example, having gaps# and spaces in the work so that the reader has## to step in to piece things together.

And,# for her, this was part of an ethos that## had to do with egalitarianism, treating the# reading experience, the writing experience,## the whole literary experience as a kind of# communal, mutually enforcing engagement.

You have to actually work to make the work come to# life with her.

And I think, for her, that was very## important, very much a part of a Black aesthetic.# When you're in a jazz show, the hoots and hollers## and the calls and the clapping is as much part# of the performance as the playing of the music.

GEOFF BENNETT: A question just occurred# to me.

How can a writer like Toni Morrison## be fully institutionalized, in the# sense that she is taught everywhere,## and yet fundamentally misunderstood# and not read on her own terms?

NAMWALI SERPELL: This is a# really, really key question.

And it's a paradox that her very good friend# Fran Lebowitz articulated when Morrison passed## away.

She said Morrison's writing was# underappreciated, curiously enough,## perhaps because people always looked at it# through the prism of her being Black and her## being a woman.

There's a way in which her stature,# her success came to overshadow the work itself.

There's a kind of presumption# that Morrison's work is brilliant,## it's beautiful, but people don't# actually need to read it.

And,## in this way, there's been a lack of attention# to how experimental her writing was and how## innovative her writing was, how much# she broke the form of the novel open.

I also think, for a long time, there were# not readers able to bridge, as she did,## her understanding of the novel with her# understanding of Black cultural forms,## things like signifying, things# like shade, things like jazz.

And it's by having this kind of balance of the# two forms of knowledge, as a professor myself,## as a Black woman, as a writer, that# I feel like I wanted to contribute to## the conversation about Morrison's work,# focusing on her mastery of Black form.

GEOFF BENNETT: It's interesting.

I hear you# say that the paradox of Toni Morrison was that,## the more she was celebrated, the# less rigorously she was read.

NAMWALI SERPELL: She was read, yes.

GEOFF BENNETT: And in this moment# that prizes clarity and .. and instant comprehension, what added# value does Toni Morrison's work yield?

NAMWALI SERPELL: I think Morrison wanted to go# back to what she described as village literature,## which is a notion that literature is# a social form, it's a community form,## and therefore it can't just tell you,# the individual reader, what to do.

It has to open up questions so that we can# talk about it as a community.

We're not just## being given a message or a single slogan.# We're being given an experience.

And that## experience is raising questions, is opening# up all sorts of topics for debate so that,## when you close the cover of the# novel and you turn to the final page,## you immediately want to seek someone# out and talk to them about it.

That, to me, is the power of literature.

GEOFF BENNETT: You end the book by saying# that you aspire to Morrison's freedom to## be at ease with being difficult.

What does that# freedom look like, especially for Black women?

NAMWALI SERPELL: It's a very tricky time to# be willful, to be unreasonable, to be angry.

These are all ways in which Black women get# relegated to the category of being difficult.## But I think we have to have a faith and a# commitment to the complexity of our experience,## to the complexity of our lives, and to# the incredible complexity of art itself.

Morrison said, when someone considers you# difficult, that's a good sign.

It means that## you have insisted on being taken seriously.

And,# to me, that's what I aspire to.

I want my work## to be taken seriously.

I want to be taken# seriously.

I don't want to be thrown into## a position where I'm here nearly to comfort,# or placate, or translate things for people.

I want to inspire them.

I want to engage# with them, and I want to make them think.

GEOFF BENNETT: The book is extraordinary.

NAMWALI SERPELL: Thank you so much.

GEOFF BENNETT: "On Morrison."

Namwali Serpell, thank you for being he.. NAMWALI SERPELL: Thank you.