>>> HELLO, EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & COMPANY.

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

>> WE ARE NEVER GOING TO HAVE AMERICA BACK IN THE SAME WAY.

>> BITTER MAYBE LONG-LASTING AMERICAN STRUGGLE.

HISTORIANS PUT THIS MOMENT INTO CONTEXT.

>> IT IS MORE CANNABIS THAN I HAVE EVER SEEN IN MY LIFE.

THE SCALE OF DRUGS HERE IS ENORMOUS.

>> MEXICO'S CRACKDOWN ON THE CARTEL AND ISABEL YOUNG CRACKS DOWN ON GRIEF, VIOLENCE AND DRUGS AMONG THE MOST POWERFUL CRIMINAL GANGS IN THE WORLD.

ALSO AHEAD -- >> I DON'T THINK A LAW BASED ON SUCH OBVIOUS AND BIGOTRY AND RACISM SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO EXIST TODAY IN MODERN AMERICA.

>> BAD LOT.

THIS BEST-SELLING AUTHOR TALKS ABOUT THE 10 LAWS HE THINKS DO MORE HARM THAN GOOD.

♪ AMANPOUR AND COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM, THE LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS FAMILY CHARITABLE TRUST, MARK J. BLECHNER, THE FILOMEN M. DGOSTINO FOUNDATION, SETON J. MELVIN, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

I AM IN LONDON.

FOR MORE THAN 100 DAYS PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS TESTED THE VERY LIMITS OF EXECUTIVE POWER DEFINED THE COURT, PRESSURING UNIVERSITIES AND LAW FIRMS, DEPORTING PEOPLE TO FOREIGN GULAG'S.

IT IS PROMPTING SOUL-SEARCHING ABROAD AND HOME AND WHAT DOES AMERICA REPRESENT ON THE WORLD STAGE?

BEHIND THIS CRISIS SLIDES AN ASSUMPTION THAT THIS IS A DEPARTURE FROM THE PAST AND AMERICAN DEMOCRACY HAS BEEN A BASTION FOR EQUALITY AND HUMAN RIGHTS.

WE ASKED TODAY HAS IT REALLY BEEN?

HOW MUCH OF AN OUTLIER IS THIS CURRENT CHAPTER OF THE AMERICAN EXPERIMENT.

JILL LAPORTE IS A HISTORY PROFESSOR AT HARVARD UNIVERSITY AND A STAFF WRITER AT THE NEW YORKER AND TIMOTHY ASH IS PROFESSOR OF EUROPEAN STUDIES AT OXFORD UNIVERSITY.

WELCOME, BOTH OF YOU, TO THE PROGRAM.

SO, JILL LEPORE LET ME ASK YOU.

EXPLAIN WHAT THE LIBERAL WORLD ORDER IS, IN SHORT OBVIOUSLY, AND IS AMERICA ACTUALLY DEPARTING FROM IT RIGHT NOW?

>> WELL, THE LIBERAL WORLD ORDER HAD ITS ORIGINS IN THE SECOND WORLD WAR AND THE ALLIANCE BETWEEN CHURCHILL AND FRANKLIN DELANO ROOSEVELT.

BUT IN THE AFTERMATH OF THE WAR, IN WHICH THE UNITED STATES ASSUMED AUTHORITY ON A GLOBAL STAGE AS A BEACON OF LIBERAL DEMOCRACY AND PUT MONEY BEHIND THAT PROMISE, THERE WERE MANY WAYS IN WHICH THE UNITED STATES FELL SHORT OF THOSE IDEALS, AS MANY CRITICS OF AMERICAN IMPERIALISM WOULD SUGGEST.

BUT AMERICAN COMMITMENTS TO PEACEFUL DISPUTES AROUND THE WORLD THROUGH ITS HONED ECONOMIC FORCE HAS BEEN CRUCIAL TO WHAT STABILITY THERE HAS BEEN FOR THE LAST 80 YEARS OF WORLD HISTORY.

SO THIS IS AN INCREDIBLY TURNING POINT AND INFLECTION POINT.

NOBODY KNOWS WHICH WAY THIS IS HEADED.

TRUMP REPRESENTS A GREAT RETREAT FROM OF COMMITMENTS.

>> THE BOTTOM LINE APPARENTLY IS THAT THE BERLIN SOME REQUIRES POWER TO BE CONTAINED WITHIN ITS AUTHORIZED AND CONSTITUTIONAL BOUNDARIES.

EXECUTIVE POWER.

JILL, WHO IS GOING TO LIMIT THE STRETCHING OF THIS EXECUTIVE POWER BY PRESIDENT TRUMP?

CONGRESS DOESN'T SEEM TO BE DOING ITS JOB.

THAT IS PRESUMABLY ITS JOB.

>> YES.

THE SEPARATION OF POWERS MEANS IT IS THE JOB OF EVERYBODY BUT THE EXECUTIVE TO EXERCISE A BRAKING FORCE ON ANY KIND OF OVERREACH.

THAT IS TRUE OF ANY BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT.

CONGRESS HAS BEEN FECKLESS FOR SOME TIME NOW, REALLY, SINCE THE 1980s.

IT'S THE FUNCTION OF THE INCREDIBLE POLARIZATION OF THE UNITED STATES, PART OF WHICH IS A CONSEQUENCE OF THE TWO-PARTY SYSTEM, BUT ALSO, REALLY THAT IS A FUNCTION OF INCOME AND EQUALITY IN THE UNITED STATES.

THOSE TWO ARE CLOSELY RELATED.

CONGRESS HAS BEEN EXTREMELY INEFFECTIVE, EVEN WITHOUT THE SITUATION, IN WHICH TRUMP ENJOYS A REPUBLICAN SENATE AND REPUBLICAN HOUSE.

THE SUPREME COURT HAS BEEN TO SOME DEGREE A BREAK ON TRUMPISM.

THE SUPREME COURT DIDN'T ALLOW FOR INSTANCE TRUMP TO OVERTURN THE RESULTS OF THE 2020 ELECTION WHICH WAS HIS HOPE AND DESIRE.

I THINK, IN THE END, REALLY, WE ARE NOT SEEING A LOT OF PUSHBACK AGAINST THE EXECUTIVE OVERREACH BECAUSE OF THE WORLD WIND OF THE EXECUTIVE ORDERS.

THIS IS AN EMERGENCY PRESIDENCY.

IT IS A NEW THING IN AMERICAN POLITICAL LIFE OR TRUMP IS ISSUING A RECORD NUMBER OF EXECUTIVE ORDERS.

BUT UNDER THE AUTHORITY OF EMERGENCY DECLARATIONS.

>> YES.

TIMOTHY GARDNER NASH, WHO STUDIES EUROPEAN HISTORY AND OBVIOUSLY AMERICA'S ROLE IN THE WORLD, WHAT IS EUROPE SEEING AND INTERPRETING IN THIS MOMENT?

OBVIOUSLY, THE UNITED STATES, AND YOU ARE A WITNESS TO THE END OF THE COLD WAR, PLAYED A PRETTY SIGNIFICANT ROLE IN THAT.

AND NOW, AGAIN, IT DOES SEEM TO BE TURNING ITS BACK ON THAT TRADITION WITH THE FOREIGN POLICY.

>> WELL, MANY EUROPEANS ARE SAYING THIS IS THE END OF THE WEST, NOT AS A HISTORICAL OR CULTURAL ENTITY BUT A GEOPOLITICAL ACTOR.

THEY SAID IT STARTS WITH CHURCHILL AND ROOSEVELT DURING THE WORLD WAR AND IT WAS EXPANDED WEST.

SO WE LOOKED AT IT AS A GEOPOLITICAL ACTOR FOR THE LAST 80 YEARS.

THIS IS, YOU KNOW, THE TRUMP SHOCK COMING ON TOP OF THE PUTIN SHOCK.

I WOULD SAY ALSO THE SHOCK OF THE CHINESE PRESIDENT.

EUROPEANS ARE SAYING TO THEMSELVES IF ANYBODY IS GOING TO DEFEND EUROPE, IT WILL BE US.

IF ANYONE IS GOING TO DEFEND WHAT IS LEFT OF LIBERAL INTERNATIONAL ORDER, IT WILL HAVE TO BE US.

>> IS IT JUST TRUMP OR AMERICA'S REPUTATION AND WHAT AMERICA STANDS FOR SOMEBODY SUGGESTED THAT IS BEING SHOCK IN THESE 100 DAYS.

IN OTHER WORDS, WHAT PEOPLE THINK ABOUT AMERICANS TODAY HAVING IMBUED SO MUCH GOOD INTENTION OVER AMERICA OVER THE NEXT FEW YEARS.

>> I WOULD SAY THESE THINGS.

THEY TALK ABOUT THE UNITED STATES BEING A LIBERAL LEVIATHAN ON.

TO THE EXTENT THAT WORKED IT WAS OFTEN BECAUSE THERE WAS A KIND OF REGIMEN WHICH WAS THE UNITED STATES.

NATO IS THE OBVIOUS AND IT IS AN EFFECTIVE OF A MILITARY ALLIANCE BECAUSE IT REALLY WORKS AND IT HAS THAT POWER.

THAT IS THE IMPACT BUT THE OTHER BIT OF IT IS THIS PART AND I CAN SPEAK FOR MYSELF AND FOR THE WHOLE OF MY LIFE, I HAVE HAD A BASICALLY POSITIVE VIEW OF THE UNITED STATES AND SEEING THE UNITED STATES AS A NATURAL FRIEND OF FREEDOM IN EUROPE AND ELSEWHERE.

I, LIKE MANY OTHERS, ARE NOW VERY MUCH HAVING SECOND THOUGHTS .

SO ACTUALLY, IT WAS A HIGH TEMPLE OF ANGLO-AMERICAN FRIENDSHIP WORK CHURCHILL DID THAT IN THE SECOND WORLD WAR AND FIGURES OF BRITISH ESTABLISHMENT SAID THE SAME.

WE WILL NEVER HAVE AMERICA BACK IN THE SAME WAY.

IT IS BOTH THE LOSS OF THE LIBERAL LEVIATHAN IN THOSE TERMS AND OF COURSE AS A DEFENDER OF FREE TRADE.

BUT ALSO THE LOSS OF AMERICAN SOFT POWER" ABILITY.

>> THE WORD LIBERAL SENDS CERTAIN PEOPLE INTO HYPERVENTILATION AND CONNIPTION FITS.

THEY THINK IT AUTOMATICALLY MEANS FAR LEFT, PROGRESSIVISM AND ALL THE REST OF IT.

YOU WROTE RECENTLY IN THE NEW YORKER ABOUT THE 100 DAYS SAME TRUMP FELD SO MUCH TIMBER NOT BECAUSE OF THE MIGHTINESS OF HIS ACT BUT BECAUSE OF THE ROT IN HIS TREES AND THE WEAKNESS IN THE WOOD.

I WANT TO KNOW WHERE YOU THINK THAT ROT AND WEAKNESS STARTED.

WHAT IS THE HISTORY TWO, I GUESS AMERICAN HISTORY AND IT WASN'T ALWAYS THE LIBERAL WORLD ORDER AND IT HAS A VERY PRONOUNCED PAST.

>> I THINK WHAT IS DIFFERENT ABOUT THIS MOMENT IS HOW MUCH THE LIBERALISM HAS COME AS WELL FROM THE LEFT.

THERE HAS BEEN AS WELL IN AMERICAN HISTORY A TREMENDOUSLY CONTINUOUS FORCE OF LIBERALISM FROM THE RIGHT.

IT RISES AND FALLS AND YOU TELL THE AMERICAN HISTORY AND IT'S THE KIND OF CONTEST BETWEEN LIBERALISM AND AMERICAN POLITICS AND CULTURE.

BUT THAT ON THE LEFT STARTED IN THE 1990s I WOULD SAY AND PROGRESSIVE OVERREACH HAS BEEN THE DOWNFALL OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY FOR MANY YEARS NOW.

I THINK MISIDENTIFYING THE MOOD OF THE PUBLIC OR THE INTEREST OF THE PUBLIC AND PROGRESSIVE CAUSES WHICH HAS NOT CAUSED IF NOT THE DEATH THE THE QUESTIONS BECAUSE I THINK LIBERALISM FROM THE EUROPEAN CONTEXT SEEM INDISTINGUISHABLE BUT IN THE U.S. PROGRESSIVISM IS ONE THING AND LIBERALISM IS ANOTHER.

I THINK TRUMP HAS BEEN AN UNCANNY POLITICAL ACTOR IN SENSING THERE WAS SO MUCH OPPORTUNITY TO DRIVE REACTIONARY POLITICS IN RESPONSE TO PROGRESSIVISM.

I THINK THAT IS WHERE HE GAINED A LOT OF HIS ELECTORAL FOLLOWING.

>> TIMOTHY, WHERE DOES EUROPE STAND ON THESE WORDS AND DEFINITIONS, LIBERALISM?

AND HOW DO YOU AS A STUDENT OF HISTORY TRACE SOME OF THESE VERY LATE 1800 EARLY 1900 ROUTES.

>> THERE IS PLENTY IN THE HISTORY OF THE WEST BUT I THINK IT HAS TWO PROBLEMS.

ONE IS THAT IT MEANS SO MANY DIFFERENT THINGS IN DIFFERENT PLACES AND IN CALIFORNIA FOR CONSERVATIVE MEANS SOMETHING AND COMMUNISM.

AND IN SIBERIA IT BECOMES SOMETHING CLOSE TO FASCISM.

AND ALSO MUCH OF CONTINENTAL EUROPE IT IS ASSOCIATED WITH FREE-MARKET ECONOMICS.

WE DO HAVE A PROBLEM OF DEFINITIONS.

AND THEN WE HAVE THE PROBLEM THAT JILL LEPORE STARTED REFERRING TO, WHICH IS THAT THERE ARE THINGS ASSOCIATED WITH LIBERALISM OVER THE LAST 40 YEARS.

A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE BEEN VERY UNHAPPY ABOUT.

ONE OF THEM WAS THE IDENTITY POLITICS THAT JILL MENTIONED, WHICH IS PROGRESSIVE RATHER THAN GENERALLY LIBERAL BECAUSE LIBERAL ABSOLUTELY REQUIRES EQUAL LIBERTY FOR ALL AND THE OTHER IS NEOLIBERALISM AND GLOBALIZED CAPITALISM, WHICH IS PRODUCING EXTRAORDINARY INEQUALITIES AND HAS LEFT, FOR EXAMPLE, THE AMERICAN LIBERAL AND WORKING-CLASS FEELING NEGLECTED ECONOMICALLY AS WELL AS CULTURALLY.

SO THAT IF THERE IS TO BE A LIBERAL FIGHT BACK, WHICH I THINK THERE NEEDS TO BE, AND CLEARLY A LOT OF CANADIANS ALSO THINK THERE NEEDS TO BE, IT HAS TO ADDRESS THE LIBERALISM FROM PUTIN TO IN TOKYO TO VICTOR OR BONN IN HUNGARY.

AND THE PROBLEMS THAT LIBERALISM HAS CREATED.

ACTUALLY, WHAT I WOULD SAY IS THAT WE HAVE THAT KIND OF GLOBAL LIBERAL DEMOCRATIC REVOLUTION AND ACCORDING TO FREEDOM HOUSE, 1974, THERE WERE ONLY 70 AND BY 2004 80 FREE COUNTRIES.

NOW WHAT WE HAVE IS A GLOBAL ANTILIBERAL COUNSEL REVOLUTION AND MUCH OF WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE UNITED STATES AND NOT EVERYTHING HAVE MUCH OF IT, WE HAVE SEEN BEFORE AND A COUNTRY LIKE HUNGARY OR TURKEY.

>> JILL, LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT SOME OF THE KEY TOUCH TONES.

THERE ARE, NOT JUST IN THE UNITED STATES BUT EUROPE AS WELL, AND OBSESSION WITH IMMIGRATION, MIGRANTS, AND THAT SIDE OF THE IDENTITY PIECE, RIGHT?

I GUESS WHAT I'M TRYING TO FIGURE OUT IS WHETHER AMERICA HAS SHOWED ITS FACE.

WE WILL TALK ABOUT EUROPE AS WELL AND THEY HAVE GONE TOWARDS RESTRICTIONS ON MIGRATIONS AND FREE TRADE AS WELL.

BUT THEY WANTED A PRESIDENT THAT WOULD STOP MIGRATION INTO THE UNITED STATES, AT LEAST THEY SAY ILLEGAL MIGRATION.

NOW, WE HAVE HOLES -- POLLS WHICH IS JUST THE AMERICAN PEOPLE FEEL HE HAS GONE TOO FAR WITH AMASSED DEPORTATIONS, IGNORING THE COURTS IS JUST A STEP TOO FAR.

WHAT DOES AMERICA STAND FOR?

>> I THINK AMERICA IS TRULY DIVIDED ON THIS QUESTION.

I THINK ON THE WHOLE, AMERICANS ARE CURRENTLY ILL-INFORMED ABOUT IT AS A CONSEQUENCE OF THE DISRUPTIVE FORCE OF SOCIAL MEDIA OVER THE LAST 20 YEARS.

I MEAN, I THINK IMMIGRATION, IN A WAY, KIND OF PARALLELS THE ISSUE OF LIBERALISM.

IF YOU THINK OF THE AFTERMATH AT THE END OF THE COLD WAR IN THE 1990s, AMERICAN POLITICS BECAME REALLY TRIBAL, PARTLY BECAUSE THERE WAS NO COMMUNIST ENEMY TO DEMONIZE THAT SORT OF UNITED THE PARTIES.

THE DEMONIZING OF LIBERALISM BECAME KIND OF A COMMITMENT FOR THE CONSERVATIVE INSURGENCY.

ONE PIECE OF THAT DEMONIZING INVOLVED DEMONIZING MIGRANTS AND NOT TO SAY IT IS IN A SUBSTITUTE -- SUBSTITUTES OF CAUSE PREFERENCES AND I THINK IT HAS GOTTEN BOUND UP IN THE TRIBALISM OF AMERICAN POLITICS.

IT BECOMES HARD TO KNOW WHAT AMERICANS THINK ABOUT IMMIGRATION BECAUSE IT IS A PROXY FOR ALL OF THE OTHER ISSUES THAT DIVIDE AMERICANS.

>> AS I SAY, WE SEE SOME PROTESTS THAT LEAD REPUBLICANS TO GO TO THEIR CONSTITUENCIES IN TOWN HALLS AND LOAD OF ISSUES INCLUDING THE ECONOMY.

BUT LET ME ASK YOU, JILL, FOR ME U.S. PERSPECTIVE, AMERICA HAS GONE THROUGH ILL LIBERAL PERIODS GOING BACK TO JIM CROW AND THE JAPANESE INTERNMENT AND THE RED SCARE.

HOW DOES AMERICA LOOK TO THE PAST AND FIGURE OUT HOW TO EMERGE FROM THIS ONE IF INDEED IT EVER WILL?

>> I ACTUALLY THINK THE LAST BURST OF DEMOCRACY IS THE BEST MODEL FOR THE UNDERSTANDING HISTORICALLY OF THIS MOMENT.

SO THINK ABOUT THE RISING NUMBER OF DEMOCRACY SINCE 1974.

THERE WAS A SIMILAR RISE IN THE NUMBER OF DEMOCRACIES AFTER WORLD WAR I AND WILSON SAID HE WOULD MAKE THE WORLD SAFE FOR DEMOCRACY AS EUROPEAN EMPIRES COLLAPSED.

DEMOCRACIES WERE BORN.

DURING ECONOMIC CRISIS OF THE 20s, BEGAN COLLAPSING.

IN THE U.S. CUT IT SEEMED POSSIBLE AS WELL.

THE 1930s IN THE UNITED STATES WERE, YOU COULDN'T OPEN A MAGAZINE WITHOUT COMING ACROSS A SERIES OF ESSAYS OR SYMPOSIUM ON THE FUTURE OF DEMOCRACY.

EVERYBODY WAS CONCERNED IN THE UNITED STATES THAT THE UNITED STATES MIGHT FALL PREY TO FASCISM COMMUNISM OR TECHNOCRACY THE MOVEMENT LED IN NORTH AMERICA LED BY ELON MUSK'S GRANDFATHER.

THERE WAS THIS REAL SENSE THAT DEMOCRACY MAY NOT SURVIVE IN THE 1930s BECAUSE THE FORCES OF ILL LIBERALISM WERE ON THE RISE ALL OVER THE WORLD.

I THINK HOW AMERICANS CONFRONT THAT CHALLENGE IS A POSSIBLE MODEL FOR THIS MOMENT IN THOSE CONVERSATIONS, WHAT WE DO WITH DEMOCRATIC BEHAVIOR THAT SEEMS TO BE ON THE DECLINE AND PEOPLE'S COMMITMENT TO THE SEPARATION OF POWERS SEEMS TO BE FALLING OUR SENSE THAT THE COUNTRY CAN ENDURE AS A SELF- GOVERNING ENTITY IS WHEN WE ARE QUESTIONING?

PEOPLE GOT TOGETHER AND IN ESSENTIAL VERSIONS OF TOWN MEETINGS AND TRIED TO TALK THE ISSUES AND THE BROADCAST MEDIA WAS REALLY IMPORTANT TO AMERICAN THE PROPHECY -- DEMOCRACY DURING THOSE YEARS AND THE RADIO TRIED TO BRIDGE DIVIDES AMONG AMERICANS TO TRY TO RESTORE FAITH IN DEMOCRACY.

AND OF COURSE THE LEADERSHIP OF ROOSEVELT.

WE DON'T HAVE A ROOSEVELT IN THIS MOMENT, OBVIOUSLY, BUT I DO THINK THERE ARE LESSONS TO BE LEARNED FROM THE 1930s.

>> THAT IS REALLY INTERESTING.

AND SCOTT TIM, FROM AN OUTSIDE AMERICA VIEW, WE JUST SAW THE HEAD OF THE LIBERAL PARTY, MARK CARNEY, BASICALLY RISE HIS PARTY FROM UNDERWATER POLLS BY ESSENTIALLY RUNNING ON AN ANTI- TRUMP FORM.

I WANT TO PLAY WHAT HE SAID WHEN HE WON.

>> THROUGHOUT OUR HISTORY, THERE HAVE BEEN TURNING POINTS.

THROUGHOUT OUR HISTORY THERE HAVE BEEN TURNING POINTS WHEN THE WORLD FORTUNES HAVE BEEN IN THE BALANCE.

THAT WAS THE CASE AT THE START OF THE SECOND WORLD WAR JUST AS WAS AT THE END OF THE COLD WAR.

EACH TIME, CANADA CHOSE TO STEP UP, TO ASSERT OURSELVES AS A FREE SOVEREIGN AND AMBITIOUS NATION, TO LEAD THE PATH OF DEMOCRACY AND FREEDOM AND, BECAUSE WE ARE CANADIAN, TO DO SO WITH COMPASSION AND GENEROSITY.

WE ARE, ONCE AGAIN ONE OF THOSE HINGE MOMENTS OF HISTORY.

OUR OLD RELATIONSHIP WITH UNITED STATES, RELATIONSHIP BASED ON STEADILY INCREASING INTEGRATION IS OVER.

THE SYSTEM OF OPEN GLOBAL TRADE ANCHORED BY THE UNITED STATES, A SYSTEM THAT CANADA HAS RELIED ON SINCE THE SECOND WORLD WAR, A SYSTEM THAT, WHILE NOT PERFECT , HAS HELPED DELIVER PROSPERITY FOR THE COUNTRY FOR DECADES IS OVER.

>> THAT IS PRETTY PROFOUND IN ITS BLEAKNESS AND REALISM.

DO YOU THINK, TIM, WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT HOW ILLIBERAL DEMOCRACIES CAN BE PUSHED BACK OUTSIDE OF THE UNITED STATES LIKE HUNGARY AND ELSEWHERE , THERE IS A PLAYBOOK?

>> I DO.

FIRST OF ALL, TRUMP IS ACTUALLY A GIFT TO THE OPPONENTS OF TRUMPISM AND MUCH OF THE WORLD AND WITHOUT TRUMP MARK CARNEY WOULDN'T OF HAD THAT VICTORY AND WE HAVE AN ELECTION IN AUSTRALIA NEXT WEEKEND AND CUT AGAIN IT LOOKS LIKE THE CONSERVATIVES WILL SUFFER WITH THEIR ASSOCIATION FROM TRUMP AND ALL OVER EUROPE HARD RIGHT POPULISTS ARE DEEPLY EMBARRASSED BY THEIR ASSOCIATION WITH TRUMP AND THAT IS THE FIRST POINT.

POINT NUMBER TWO IS BECAUSE QUITE A FEW OTHER COUNTRIES WENT INTO THE CITY -- DEMAND LANE OF DEMOCRACY THIS ILLIBERAL REVOLUTION, WHICH IS IN UNITED STATES COST SOONER, WE HAVE SOME EXPERIENCE OF HOW YOU GET OUT OF IT.

FOR EXAMPLE, POLAND HAD A POPULIST GOVERNMENT FOR EIGHT YEARS WHICH NEARLY SUCCEEDED WHAT VICTOR ORBAN DID IN HUNGRY AND WHAT TRUMP IS TRYING TO DO IN THE UNITED STATES AND TRUMP IS A GREAT ADMIRER OF VICTOR ORBAN BUT HAS COME OUT ON THE OTHER SIDE.

AND ONE LESSON IS VERY VERY SIMPLE.

WIN THE NEXT ELECTION.

THE POLLS CAME OUT OF IT BECAUSE DESPITE IT NOT BEING A FAIR AND FREE ELECTION, NOT A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD, THEY HAD THE BIGGEST TURNOUT IN POLISH HISTORY.

MORE YOUNG PEOPLE VOTED THAN OLD PEOPLE AND MORE WOMEN THAN MEN.

AND THEY JUST TURN THE ELECTION.

ONE LESSON FOR THE UNITED STATES IS WIN THE MIDTERMS.

>> IT IS REALLY FASCINATING.

NEXT TIME WE TALK, HOPEFULLY WE WILL TALK ABOUT A POTENTIAL WORLD WITHOUT THE UNITED STATES AS THE DEFENDER OF THE LIBERAL WORLD ORDER IT CREATED.

TIMOTHY GARTON ASH, JILL LEPORE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> RESIDENT TRUMP HAS BEEN PRESSURING HIS MEXICAN COUNTERPART TO TAKE DECISIVE ACTION AGAINST HER COUNTRIES CARTELS WHO SENT HUGE QUANTITIES OF DRUGS INTO THE UNITED STATES.

IN RESPONSE MEXICO HAS SENT HUNDREDS OF TROOPS INTO THE STATE OF SINALOA AND WE HAVE BEEN THERE TO SEE THE IMPACT IT IS HAVING AND TO KNOW SOME OF THIS REPORT IS DIFFICULT TO WATCH.

>> RIGHT NOW WE ARE RACING THROUGH TOWN FOLLOWING THIS GROUP ON THAT MOTORBIKE.

>> Reporter: THIS AREA IS VERY POPULATED WITH THOSE MEMBERS AND RIGHT NOW THIS GUY HAS BEEN LOSING A LOT OF BLOOD SO IT IS A RACE AGAINST TIME.

>> Reporter: VIOLENCE ERUPTS HERE ALMOST EVERY NIGHT HERE IN MEXICO THE HEARTLAND OF ONE OF THE MOST CRIMINAL GANGS IN THE WORLD.

ONCE LED BY THE NOTORIOUS DRUG LORD EL CHAPO, THIS CARTEL IS RESPONSIBLE FOR SELLING HUGE QUANTITIES OF DRUGS TO U.S. CONSUMERS.

>> THE CARTELS ARE WAGING WAR IN AMERICA.

IT IS TIME FOR AMERICA TO WAGE WAR ON THE CARTELS.

>> Reporter: RESIDENT DONALD TRUMP IS PRESSURING THE MEXICAN PRESIDENT, CLAUDIA SHEINBAUM, TO CRACK DOWN ON THE CARTELS, THREATENING TARIFFS AND EVEN MILITARY STRIKES.

IN RESPONSE, HUNDREDS OF SOLDIERS HAVE ALREADY BEEN ADDED TO THE TROOPS HERE IN SINALOA.

WE COME HERE TO UNDERSTAND WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE FROM HIDDEN DRUG LABS AND DEFIANT CARTEL MEMBERS TO GRIEVING FAMILIES.

AND SOLDIERS ON THE FRONT LINE.

WE ARE WITH THE MEXICAN MILITARY RIGHT NOW IN THE STATE OF SENNA LOLA OVER THIS EXPANSIVE RURAL LAND LOOKING FOR ANY SIGNS OF CARTEL A TIVOLI.

>> THIS IS MORE CANNABIS THAN I HAVE EVER SEEN IN MY LIFE.

THE SCALE OF DRUGS HERE IS JUST ENORMOUS.

THIS IS A WHOLE FIELD OF MARIJUANA HERE AND THESE GUYS WILL BE HERE FOR THE NEXT FEW DAYS JUST TRYING TO DESTROY FIELD UPON THE FIELD OF CANNABIS AND POPPIES.

>> Reporter: IS THIS AREA SAFE?

>> YES, A SECURED AREA.

WE NEED TO MAKE A REAL RECONNAISSANCE AND BE COOL AND AND ON FOOT.

HERE IS A POPPY FIELD.

>> OH, WOW.

>> SO THIS IS WHERE THEY GET THE OPIUM AND THEY START THE PROCESS TO GET HEROIN.

>> SO HOW MUCH HEROIN DOES IT PRODUCE?

>> TWO KILOS.

>> Reporter: THE SOLDIERS BURN THE POPPIES AND THE MARIJUANA, BUT IT IS SYNTHETIC DRUGS THAT ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR MOST OF THE 87,000 AMERICANS WHO HAVE DIED OF OVERDOSES IN THE SPACE OF THE YEAR.

THESE DRUGS LIKE METHAMPHETAMINE AND FENTANYL, CAN BE PRODUCED IN A MUCH BIGGER QUANTITY TO GENERATE ENORMOUS PROFIT AND THEY ARE EASIER TO HIDE.

>> Reporter: I CAN SMELL IT FROM HERE.

IT IS VERY STRONG.

>> Reporter: IN THE FIRST SIX MONTHS OF THE PRESIDENCY OF CLAUDIA SHEINBAUM, THOUSANDS OF SUSPECTED CARTEL MEMBERS HAVE BEEN ARRESTED.

MORE THAN 140 TONS OF DRUGS HAVE BEEN SEIZED.

BUT THE REALITY IS THAT MORE THAN 1200 PEOPLE HAVE ALSO BEEN KILLED INNOCENT A LOWER IN THE PAST YEAR.

HUNDREDS MORE HAVE DISAPPEARED.

AND UNCOMFORTABLE FACT FOR THE MEXICAN MILITARY.

HERE DOWNTOWN IN THE CAPITAL OF SENNA LOLA, THE MILITARY'S NARRATIVE BEGINS TO UNRAVEL.

THE RATES OF VIOLENCE ARE STILL EXTREMELY HIGH HERE.

SINCE SEPTEMBER WHEN THIS WAR BETWEEN THE TWO FACTIONS OF THE SINALOA CARTEL HAVE EXPLODED, PEOPLE HAVE BEEN DYING ON A DAILY BASIS.

THERE A VERY STARK REMINDER SEAR PEOPLE WHO ARE MISSING AND WHO HAVE DISAPPEARED AS PART OF THIS CARTEL WAR BETWEEN THE TWO FACTIONS THAT IS PLAYING OUT RIGHT NOW AND IN VERY RECENT CASES THIS IS A 23-YEAR-OLD WHO WENT MISSING.

>> YOU CANNOT SAY IF THEY ARE REAL.

TOOK WHAT YOU MEAN?

THIS IS THE DATE HERE.

THIS IS THE 22nd OF MARCH THEY WENT MISSING, RIGHT?

>> WHO WROTE THIS?

WE DON'T KNOW.

>> Reporter: AS WE ARE TALKING, A SOLDIER BLOCKS OUR CAMERA.

>> Reporter: YOU MEAN IT ISN'T VERIFIED AND PRESUMABLY PEOPLE AND PUTTING UP POSTERS FOR THE FUN OF IT BUT THEY ARE MISSING FAMILY MEMBERS, RIGHT?

YOU DON'T WANT US FILMING IT?

THE MILITARY STEERS US OFF AND INVITES US TO FILM SOMETHING ELSE BUT WE DO CALL THE NUMBER ON THE POSTER OF THE MISSING WOMAN AND HER NAME IS VIVIAN.

HER FAMILY SAID SHE DISAPPEARED 17 DAYS AGO AND WE PROMISED TO FOLLOW UP ON HER STORY.

BUT WHO ARE THE MEN RUNNING THIS CRIMINAL NET WORK WREAKING HAVOC ON PEOPLE LIVING HERE?

WE DO PART WAYS WITH THE MILITARY.

>> WE HAVE ENTERED AN AREA OF THE CITY THAT IS STILL VERY DANGEROUS AFTER WEEKS OF TRYING OUR CONTACT ON THE GROUND HAS MANAGED TO SECURE A MEETING WITH A MEMBER OF THE CARTEL INVOLVED APPARENTLY IN THE PRODUCTION OF DRUGS.

SO WE ARE MEETING HIM NOW SOMEWHERE AROUND HERE IN AN UNDISCLOSED LOCATION.

>> Reporter: THIS MAN IS TALKING TO US ON THE CONDITION WE HIDE HIS IDENTITY AND LOCATION.

>> Reporter: CAN I PULL UP A CHAIR?

HE SAYS HE PRODUCES FENTANYL FOR THE SINALOA CARTEL.

HOW SAFE OR DANGEROUS AS THIS AREA TO BE IN?

AND THE MEXICAN MILITARY IS MAKING A BIG EFFORT TO CRACK DOWN ON THE PRODUCTION HERE AND HOW ARE YOU RESPONDING TO THAT AND HOW DOES THAT IMPACT YOUR WORK?

>> Reporter: ACCORDING TO THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, YOU ARE A TERRORIST AND THE CARTELS HAVE LABELED YOU FOREIGN TERRORISTS ORGANIZATIONS AND WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?

WHAT IS YOUR MESSAGE TO DONALD TRUMP IF HE IS WATCHING THIS?

>> Reporter: THERE IS A LOT OF VIOLENCE PLAYING OUT ON THE STREETS HERE AT THE MOMENT EVERY DAY, RIGHT?

I MEAN, PEOPLE ARE DYING EVERY DAY ON A DAILY BASIS IN CHILDREN ARE FREE TO GO TO SCHOOL.

YOU HAVE ANY SENSE OF REMORSE OVER YOUR ROLE AND YOUR INVOLVEMENT IN THIS GROUP?

>> Reporter: HIS PHONE IS RINGING AND SOMEBODY IS NEARBY.

HE TELLS US WE NEED TO LEAVE FOR HER OWN SAFETY.

IT IS BECAUSE OF THE ACTIONS OF CARTEL MEMBERS LIKE THESE THAT CIVILIANS TOO ARE CAUGHT UP IN THIS VIOLENCE.

VIVIAN, THE MISSING WOMAN FROM THE POSTER, WAS ONE OF THEM.

HER BODY HAS JUST BEEN FOUND.

>> Reporter: I AM SO SORRY FOR YOUR LOSS.

ARE YOU ABLE TO TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT YOUR SISTER?

TRUCK THERE HAS BEEN THIS MASSIVE ESCALATION IN VIOLENCE HERE OVER THE LAST FEW MONTHS WITH THIS TAKING PLACE.

DO YOU FEEL LIKE YOUR SISTER'S DEATH IS RELATED TO THAT?

>> Reporter: THE AUTHORITIES ARE SAYING THEY ARE GOING AFTER THE BAD GUYS AND MAKING A LOT OF ARRESTS AND GOING AFTER THE DRUGS AND WEAPONS.

DO YOU FEEL LIKE THEY ARE NOT DOING ENOUGH?

>> Reporter: THANK YOU FOR TALKING TO US.

YOU HAVE BEEN SO STRONG.

YOU SHOULD BE SO STRONG OF YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> Reporter: FOR VIVIAN'S FAMILY, THE AUTHORITIES EFFORTS AMOUNT TO NOTHING MORE THAN ANGUISH.

>> THE HIGH COST PAID BY JUST ABOUT ANYBODY LIVING IN SENNA LOLA.

ISABEL YOUNG IS HERE WITH ME NOW FOR MORE ON THIS REPORT.

CONGRATULATIONS.

IT IS REALLY REVEALING, REALLY INTERESTING AND REALLY OF THE MOMENT.

WHEN YOU ARE IN SENNA LOLA AND WE DON'T KNOW IF VIVIAN WAS CAUGHT UP IN ANY DRUG STING, BUT SHE IS KILLED AND THAT SHE IS DEAD.

WHAT KIND OF ATMOSPHERE DID YOU FEEL THERE?

OBVIOUSLY, YOU ARE FOLLOWING VARIOUS MILITARY AND OTHER UNITS AND SPOKE TO THE CARTEL PEOPLE.

WHAT IS THE GENERAL ATMOSPHERE?

>> Reporter: OBVIOUSLY A MOTHER BURYING HER OWN DAUGHTER AND HER SISTER AND WHAT YOU DIDN'T SEE IN THE FOOTAGE BUT WHAT IS HAPPENING IS A FEW METERS AWAY THERE WAS ANOTHER FUNERAL TAKING PLACE AND WE WERE ON THE GROUND FOR A FEW DAYS AND EVERY NIGHT THERE WAS VIOLENCE ERUPTING.

IT IS STILL EXTREMELY DANGEROUS.

PEOPLE ARE GETTING CAUGHT UP IN CARTEL SHOOTOUTS AND A LOT OF COLLATERAL DAMAGE AS WE HAVE SEEN WITH MEN, WOMEN AND CHILDREN.

>> I WAS FASCINATED BY WHAT I BELIEVE THEY SAID WAS IN THE PAST YEARS BECAUSE DRUG CARTELS HAVE BEEN THERE FOREVER THERE WAS A SORT OF UNSPOKEN RULE THAT WOMEN AND CHILDREN ARE NOT TARGETED AND IT IS CHANGED?

>> IT IS CHANGE BECAUSE OF THE ALLIANCE OF THESE TWO FACTIONS HAS BROKEN DOWN.

NOW, VIOLENCE IS EVERYWHERE.

THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED WITH HUNDREDS DISAPPEARING AS WE SAW HER SISTER DISAPPEAR BEFORE HER BODY WAS SADLY DISCOVERED.

SO, YES, THIS IS REALLY A COMPLETE BREAKDOWN OF SOCIETY AND IMPACTING EVERY FACET OF SOCIETY.

WE SPOKE TO A SCHOOL PRINCIPAL THAT SAID CHILDREN ARE AFRAID TO GO TO SCHOOL SO ATTENDANCE IS DOWN.

THE NIGHTLIFE WHICH IS USUALLY VIBRANT AND FAMOUS HAS ALMOST DISAPPEARED.

IT IS VERY EERIE AND WE SAW THE PARAMEDICS RESPONDING TO VIOLENT INCIDENTS ON A NIGHTLY BASIS.

>> EVERYBODY IS INVOLVED IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER.

>> WHAT MADE THE CARTEL MEMBER TALK TO YOU?

>> THIS WAS WEEKS AND WEEKS OF OUR CONTACT ON THE GROUND AND HE WENT TO SCHOOL WITH A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY JOINED THE CARTEL ITSELF NEGOTIATING WITH THEM AND TALKING WITH THEM AND REASSURING THEM WE WEREN'T THE DEA OR CIA OR LAW ENFORCEMENT AND WOULDN'T DO ANYTHING TO HIM AND EVENTUALLY HE DID SIT DOWN WITH US.

I HAVE BEEN REPORTING FOR A LONG TIME IN MEXICO.

I WAS REALLY SURPRISED TO HEAR HIM SAY THAT THIS POSITION HAS BEEN WEEKEND -- BECOME WEAKER AND DONALD TRUMP IS PUTTING PRESSURE ON THE GOVERNMENT THROUGH FORMS OF TERRORIST.

HE SAYS THIS IS SOMETHING THAT IS WORKING THERE.

WE ALSO NEED TO BEAR IN MIND IS THAT PRESIDENT CLAUDIA SHEINBAUM HAS A VERY DIFFERENT ATTITUDE TO HER PREDECESSOR WHO HAD A DIFFERENT ATTITUDE TOWARD THE CARTEL.

IN THE FIRST SIX MONTHS OF HER PRESIDENCY, SHE HAS ARRESTED OVER 17,000 CRIMINALS INCLUDING A LOT OF MEMBERS AND SEIZED 140 TONS OF DRUGS AND IT HAS HAD A REAL IMPACT THERE.

>> I WONDER IF THEY ARE GETTING AFRAID OF GETTING A FAMOUS MILITARY STRIKES.

I FOUND INTERESTING THE CARTEL MEMBER YOU SPOKE TO ACTUALLY SAID WHEN YOU ASKED WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT TRUMP'S METHODS AND HE SAID MY RESPECT AND YOU SAID WHY AND HE SAID BECAUSE HE IS TRYING TO DO THE BEST FOR HIS PEOPLE.

BUT THEN HE SAID IT IS HIS PEOPLE AND ESSENTIALLY THE AMERICANS, WHO ARE KEEPING THIS INDUSTRY, THAT THE LEGAL INDUSTRY, GOING, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE ATTICS AND THEY ARE THE ONES THE BUY-IN IT.

>> Reporter: EXACTLY.

HE ALSO SAID THEY ARE RESPONDING TO THIS BY BEING INCREASINGLY AGILE.

YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER THIS IS ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL CRIMINAL NETWORKS IN THE WORLD.

THEY HAVE MANY MANY YEARS OF EXPERIENCE EVADING THE AUTHORITIES AND MOVING PRODUCTION OUTSIDE OF THE STATES AS THEY SAID THEY WERE DOING AND USING SMALLER PRODUCTION FACILITIES AND MORE MOBILE EQUIPMENT.

YES, THEY SAID FIRST LONG AS PRESIDENT TRUMP ISN'T ADDRESSING THE BIGGER ISSUE OF ADDICTION IN THE UNITED STATES, THEN THEY WILL CONTINUE FEEDING THAT DEMAND.

>> IT IS AN ENDLESS CYCLE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH, ELIZABETH YOUNG.

>>> AS THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION'S BATTLE WITH THE COURTS ESCALATES, ONE LEGAL US WERE -- EXPERT IS TAKING A STEP BACK TO SEE WHAT A REPRESENTATIVE LEGAL SYSTEM COULD LOOK LIKE.

WE FIND OUT ABOUT HIS UNCONVENTIONAL THEORY EXPLORED IN HIS LATEST WORK.

>> Reporter: YOUR NEW BOOK WITH A FANTASTIC TITLE, BAD LAW, 10 POPULAR LAWS RUINING AMERICA FOCUSES ON 10 LAWS THAT YOU SAY IF REPEALED WOULD MAKE AMERICA BETTER AND, FIRST OF ALL, YOU EVEN START?

HOW DO YOU FIGURE WHICH TO GO AFTER AND WRITE A BOOK ABOUT?

>> YES SCOPING IS THE VERY FIRST PROBLEM FOR A BOOK LIKE THIS.

THERE ARE MANY LAWS AND MANY OF THEM ARE TERRIBLE AND I HAVE NOT READ THEM ALL.

SO THERE IS A LARGE UNIVERSE YOU ARE WORKING FROM.

THE WAY I WHITTLED IT DOWN AND SCOPED IT WAS TO TRY TO THINK OF LAWS THAT COULD JUST BE REPEALED.

THERE ARE MANY BAD LAWS THAT NEED TO BE REFORMED, UPDATED, SIZED, BROUGHT INTO OUR MODERN AGE.

I LEFT THOSE TO THE SIDE AND FOCUSED ON THE ONES THAT WE COULD BE RID OF, WE COULD BE RID OF THE DAY AND IT WOULD MAKE OUR WORLD BETTER TOMORROW.

THAT IS KIND OF WHERE I STARTED THE SCOPE.

THE SECOND THING I LOOKED AT WAS THE TITLE OF THE BOOK, 10 POPULAR LAWS THAT ARE RUINING AMERICA.

I TRY TO FOCUS ON LAWS THAT ENJOYED BROAD BIPARTISAN SUPPORT AT THE TIME THEY WERE PAST.

YOU SEE, THIS BOOK IS ABOUT LAWS THAT ARE WORKING AS INTENDED.

THE RACISM OR MISOGYNY OR ANTI-POVERTY, THE STUFF THE LAWS ARE DOING WAS WHAT THE PEOPLE WHO PASSED THE LAWS ONE OF THEM TO DO.

RIGHT?

SO I TRIED TO REALLY HONE IN ON LAWS THAT PEOPLE LIKE ONE TIME, BOTH PARTIES.

AND AGAIN, A LOT OF THIS BOOK IS A BIPARTISAN LOOK AT MISTAKES THAT BOTH PARTIES HAVE MADE NOW AND RELATEDLY IN A LOT OF CASES AND DEMOCRATS HAVE SAID, IT WAS A TERRIBLE MISTAKE AND NEVER SHOULD'VE PASSED BUT THE LAW IS STILL THERE.

AND YOU DON'T SEE DEMOCRATS ORGANIZING TO REPEAL TO FIX MISTAKES OF THE PAST.

THAT IS HOW I SCOPED THE BOOK TO 10.

>> YOU SEND THERE IF IT WERE UP TO ME I TREAT THE LAW PASSED BEFORE THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT OF 1965 AS PRESUMPTIVELY UNCONSTITUTIONAL AND THE GOVERNMENT OF THIS COUNTRY WAS ILLEGITIMATE WHEN IT RULED OVER PEOPLE WHO HAD THE ABILITY TO CHOOSE THE RULES.

EXPLAIN.

>> I WOULDN'T GIVE THE LAWS PASSED BEFORE THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT, WHICH I ARGUE IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PIECE OF LEGISLATION IN AMERICAN HISTORY BECAUSE THE FIRST PIECE THAT MADE US ANYTHING APPROACHING A DEMOCRACY OR A REPUBLIC AS OPPOSED TO AN APARTHEID STATE.

SO IF YOU BRING TO ME A LAW THAT IS PASSED BEFORE EVERYBODY WHO WAS LIVING HER HAD A REASONABLE OPPORTUNITY TO VOTE ON A LOT AND VOTE ON ARE PRESENTED AS IT WOULD MAKE THOSE LAWS, THEN I WILL GIVE IT A WHOLE LOT OF DIFFERENCE.

I AM NOT SAYING YOU CAN COMPLETELY IGNORE THOSE LAWS, BUT CERTAINLY, WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT HOW A COURT GIVES REFERENCE TO THE WILL OF CONGRESS OR THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE WHEN MAKING DECISIONS, I WOULD GIVE IT DEFERENCE AT ALL.

BRING ME A LAW FROM 1921 AND WHATEVER.

DO YOU HAVE ANYTHING SUPPORTING YOUR CASE FROM AFTER APARTHEID?

DO YOU HAVE ANYTHING SUPPORTING HER CASE FROM, I DON'T KNOW, THE 1970s?

RIGHT?

IF YOU CAN'T GIVE ME A REASON FOR YOUR LAW TO EXIST OR YOUR ARGUMENT TO WIN WITH A MODERN ARGUMENT, THEN I WOULD DISREGARD YOUR ANTEBELLUM ARGUMENTS.

>> LET'S TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHO GETS TO VOTE.

YOU LAY OUT IN THE BOOK THAT AMERICA IS DIFFERENT THAN OTHER DEMOCRACIES.

WHAT IS AMERICA NOT GETTING RIGHT OR COULD GET BETTER?

>> I WOULD SAY THE KEY STUPIDEST THING WE DO IS WE DON'T HAVE ONE NATIONAL ELECTORAL SYSTEM.

OUR ELECTORAL SYSTEM FLOWS UP FROM THE STATE SO INSTEAD OF ONE FEDERAL ELECTION SYSTEM, WE HAD 50 DIFFERENT FEDERAL ELECTION SYSTEMS.

EACH STATE HAS ITS OWN RULES FOR WHO IS ELIGIBLE, WHO HAVE TO REGISTER AND WHEN YOU CAN VOTE AND WHETHER OR NOT YOU CAN EARLY VOTE OR CARRIER VOTES AFTER THEY PASSED OR THE PROCESS FOR MAIL-IN BALLOTS AND WHEN THE REGISTRATION DATE IS.

IT IS RIDICULOUS.

IT IS DIFFERENT AND EVERY STATE DEPENDING ON WHAT SIDE OF THE RIVER YOU HAPPEN TO BE ON WHETHER OR NOT YOU ARE ALLOWED TO VOTE ON SATURDAY OR NOT.

THAT IS NOT WHAT ALL OF THE OTHER MAJOR DEMOCRACIES IN THIS WORLD DO.

THEY HAVE FIX THIS PROBLEM.

THEY HAVE ONE NATIONAL ELECTORAL SYSTEM.

THAT NOT ONLY ALLOWS FOR, I THINK, CONFIDENCE IN THE SYSTEM, BUT IT ALSO ALLOWS FOR LESS FRICTION IN THE SYSTEM.

BADCOCK TO ME IS THE REAL KEY POINT HERE.

IT MAKES IT EASIER FOR PEOPLE TO VOTE WHEN THERE IS ONLY ONE SYSTEM THEY HAVE TO FAMILIARIZE THEMSELVES WITH.

RIGHT?

SO ADD AN ALPHA KIND OF 30,000 FOOT LEVEL, OUR INABILITY TO HAVE A NATIONAL ELECTION SYSTEM IS A FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM WITH HER COUNTRY.

>> YOU HAVE A WHOLE CHAPTER CALLED HOW DID INGRATES BECOME ILLEGAL AND YOU SAY IT WAS INVENTED, BASICALLY, WITH THE STATED INTENTIONAL GOAL OF KEEPING AMERICA WHITE AND PROTESTANT.

HOW DO YOU THINK WE SHOULD BE APPROACHING THAT?

>> AGAIN, THROUGHOUT MY BOOK I DON'T ASK PEOPLE TO TAKE MY WORD FOR BUT I LOOK AT THE ACTUAL LANGUAGE FROM THE PEOPLE WHO PASSED THE LAW AND IN THE 1921 IMMIGRATION AND NATIONAL ACT WHICH IS WHAT THE FOUNDATION IS IN OUR COUNTRY, THIS LAW WAS -- HEAVILY RELIED ON THE SCIENCE OF AMERICA'S LEADING EUGENICISTS TERRY LAUGHLIN AND YOU KNOW THAT IS KIND OF A PROBLEM.

THE CONGRESSMAN AT THE TIME THERE ARE PASSING THE LAW SAID THAT THIS LAW WAS NECESSARY TO STOP THE MONGREL IS ASIAN OF THE WHITE RACE BY THE INFERIOR RACES.

I DON'T THINK A LAW BASED ON SUCH OBVIOUS AND STATED BIGOTRY AND RACISM SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO EXIST TODAY IN MODERN AMERICA.

THE SIMPLE FIX, TO ME, FOR THE IMMIGRATION PROBLEMS, AND TO BE CLEAR CUT IF I HAD A COMPLETE FIX FOR THE IMMIGRATION PROBLEMS, I WOULD NOT BE TELLING IT TO YOU BUT TELLING IT TO THE GOOD PEOPLE IN STOCKHOLM AND WAITING FOR THAT.

IT IS A LARGE ISSUE.

I DON'T HAVE ALL OF THE ANSWERS HERE.

RIGHT?

BUT I THINK THE FIRST AND MOST SIMPLE FIX ON THE IMMIGRATION ISSUE IS TO MAKE IT A CIVIL EVENT AS OPPOSED TO A CRIMINAL OFFENSE.

WE HAVE CRIMINAL LAWS FOR PEOPLE WHO COMMIT CRIME, INCLUDING IMMIGRANTS WHO COMMIT CRIME.

THAT IS TAKEN CARE OF.

WHAT WE DON'T NEED TO DO IS TO CRIMINALIZE PEOPLE WHO HAVE COMMITTED NO CRIME SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY ARE HERE OUT OF STATUS AND SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY OVERSTAYED THEIR VISA AND SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T FILL OUT THE RIGHT PAPERWORK AND FORM WITH A CARBON COPY AND GET IT NOTARIZED.

THAT ISN'T A CRIMINAL OFFENSE.

THAT IS A CIVIL OFFENSE.

CIVIL PENALTIES CAN BE SUBMITTED AND HARSH AND CIVIL PENALTIES INCLUDE DEPORTATION.

THAT IS A CIVIL PENALTY IN THIS COUNTRY.

AND WE CAN DO THAT IF WE FEEL THAT A PERSON HAS VIOLATED OUR LAWS IN A CIVIL SENSE.

BUT THROWING PEOPLE IN JAIL, TAKING THEM AWAY FROM THEIR CHILDREN, THROWING THEIR CHILDREN IN JAILS OR HOLDING PENS OR CONCENTRATION CAMPS, OR WHATEVER EUPHEMISM WE ARE CALLING IT TODAY, THAT IS THE MORAL AND WRONG.

IT DOESN'T NEED TO HAPPEN.

THE ONLY REASON WHY THAT DOES HAPPEN IS BECAUSE THE 1921 IMMIGRATION AND NATIONALIZATION ACT SUPPORTED BY PEOPLE WITH A VERY MOST RACIST INTENTIONS POSSIBLE MADE IT SO, BEFORE THE 1921 ACT, ALL IMMIGRATION OFFENSES WERE CIVIL PENALTIES AND NOT TERMINAL.

AND THEY COULD BE AGAIN IF WE REPEALED THAT SECTION OF THAT LAW.

>> YOU MENTIONED THE IMMIGRATION AND NATIONALITY ACT PASSING IN 1952 AND WHEN YOU LOOK AT SOME LIKE THE PRO- PALESTINIAN ACTIVISTS AT COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY, ABE PRIVATE STUDENT WHO IS A GREEN CARD HOLDER BUT SECRETARY OF STATE MARCO RUBIO SAID THE INA GIVES HIM THE AUTHORITY TO DEPORT AN ALIEN WHOSE PRESENCE OR ACTIVITIES COULD HAVE SERIOUS FOREIGN-POLICY CONSEQUENCES FOR AMERICA.

WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT THINKING?

>> IT IS TYRANNICAL.

PEOPLE'S LEGAL STATUS SHOULD NOT BE UP TO THE WHIM OF ANYONE OFFICIAL.

THAT IS WHAT THEY DO IN TYRANNIES.

IN AMERICA, WE ARE SUPPOSED TO HAVE PROCESS, AN OPPORTUNITY TO APPEAL.

WE ARE SUPPOSED TO HAVE EVIDENCE.

WHAT EVIDENCE IS RUBIO REQUIRED TO GIVE UNDER THAT SUBSECTION OF THIS STATUTE?

AS CLEAR AS I CAN READ, NONE.

IT IS HIS WHIM.

WHEN YOU LIVE UNDER THE WHIM OF MAN, YOU LIVE UNDER THE TYRANNY OF MEN.

IT IS THAT SIMPLE.

THAT IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WHY SOME OF THESE BAD LAWS, SOME OF THESE OLD LAWS, DESPERATELY NEED TO BE REPEALED, BECAUSE THEY ARE POISON PILLS IN THEM.

I READ A WHOLE BOOK AND HAD A WHOLE CHAPTER ON THE IMMIGRATION AND NATIONALITY ACT AND I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW THAT SECTION EXISTED UNTIL RUBIO PULLED IT OUT OF HIS HAT TO JUSTIFY JAILING A VALID GREEN CARD HOLDER AND I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW ABOUT IT.

AND I AM AN EXPERT, RIGHT?

I AM TALKING ABOUT IT.

I AM SAYING THIS IS PART OF THE PROBLEM.

BECAUSE THERE ARE THINGS IN THE LAWS THAT NOBODY REALLY KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE OR HOW THEY WORK, SO SOME, USUALLY A PERSON WITH A BAD INTENT, PULLS IT OUT OF THEIR HAT.

IN THIS CASE, WE HAVE A SITUATION WHERE A PERSON WITH THAT INTENT IS PULLING IT OUT OF HIS HAT TO ENACT HIS WHIMS AS OPPOSED TO ANYTHING APPROACHING A NORMAL LEGAL PROCESS.

>> YOU ALSO WRITE IN YOUR BOOK ABOUT THE STAND YOUR GROUND LOT AND MOST AMERICANS BECAME FAMILIAR WITH THAT IN 2012 WHEN GEORGE ZIMMERMAN FATALLY SHOT TRAYVON MARTIN BECAUSE HE THOUGHT HE WAS ONE -- WITHIN HIS RIGHTS TO DO SO.

A LITTLE BACKGROUND ON THAT?

>> IS THE MOST PROVABLY RACIST LAW WE HAVE.

WHAT STAND YOUR GROUND SAYS THAT IF YOU ARE ILLEGALLY IN A PLACE THAT YOU ARE ALLOWED TO BE, AND SOMEBODY, WHATEVER, COSTS YOU ANNOYS YOU, BOTHERS YOU, THREATENS YOU, YOU CAN RESPOND WITH DEADLY FORCE AND YOU CAN STAND YOUR GROUND IF IT WERE.

IT'S NOT JUST THE TAGLINE OF THE LAW.

IT IS LITERALLY IN THE LANGUAGE OF A LOT OF THE LAWS IN THE VARIOUS STATES THAT HAVE THEM.

WHEN I SAY IT IS THE MOST PROVABLY RACIST LAW WE HAVE THE CISCO GOAL -- STATISTICAL EVIDENCE FOR, IF YOU ARE A WHITE PERSON STANDING YOUR GROUND AND ARE ALLEGEDLY THREATENED OR ACCOSTED OR ANNOYED BY A BLACK PERSON AND YOU SHOOT THAT BLACK PERSON TO DEATH, YOU ARE 218 TIMES MORE LIKELY TO BE LET OFF WITH NO CHARGES THEN IF THE RACES ARE REVERSED AND ARE A BLACK PERSON AND YOU STAND YOUR GROUND AGAINST A WHITE PERSON WHO THREATENS OR COSTS OR ANNOYS YOU.

THAT IS HOW THE LAW WAS KIND OF INTENDED TO FUNCTION.

THE THING ABOUT STAND YOUR GROUND THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND IS WHAT IT DOES IN TERMS OF THE LEGAL STRUCTURE OF IS THAT IT ALIEN ICES THE PERSON WHO WAS SHOT AND ALIEN ICES THE SHOOTER FROM EVEN BEING CHARGED WITH A CRIME AND TAKEN TO TRIAL.

IF I AM WHITE AND SHOOT A BLACK PERSON AND SAY I WAS STANDING YOUR GROUND AND THE COPS BELIEVE ME, I CAN'T BE CHARGED.

I CAN'T BE INVESTIGATED.

IF THE COPS JUST TAKE MY WORD FOR IT, UNDERSTAND YOUR GROUND, THAT IS IT.

THAT IS THE END OF THE INQUIRY.

AND THAT IS ALSO ONE OF THE REASONS WHY THE LAW IS SO DISPROPORTIONATELY RACIST.

>> SO WHAT IS TO PREVENT THIS FOR A LOT OF THE LAWS YOU TALK ABOUT IN YOUR BOOKS VERSUS COMPLETE REPEAL AND OVERHAUL?

>> AGAIN, IF YOU THINK ABOUT WHAT THE LAW IS INTENDED TO DO, WHAT IS THE BENEFIT OF REFORMING?

WHAT IS THE BENEFIT OF REFORMING STAND YOUR GROUND?

I MEAN, WE HAVE LAWS PROTECTING YOUR RIGHT TO SELF-DEFENSE.

THAT IS ALREADY A LOT.

THE STAND YOUR GROUND IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF A LAW THAT IS ONLY THERE TO DO BAD THINGS.

IF YOU ARE THREATENED WITH DEADLY FORCE AND YOU DEFEND YOURSELF WITH DEADLY FORCE, WE HAVE AN ENTIRE LEGAL CANNON THAT IS DESIGNED TO FIGURE OUT IF YOU'RE SHOOTING WAS JUSTIFIED AND IT'S CALLED A JUSTIFIED HOMICIDE.

THERE IS AN ENTIRE COMMON LAW BACKGROUND FOR THAT.

IT IS NOT EASY.

BUT YOU CAN PROVE THAT YOU SHOT SOMEBODY IN SELF-DEFENSE.

IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME.

WHAT YOU NEED STAND YOUR GROUND FOR?

>> SO WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE?

WHAT YOU THINK PEOPLE CAN DO TO MAKE ANY KIND OF MEANINGFUL CHANGE IF THERE ARE SO MANY KIND OF STRUCTURAL AND CODIFIED HURTS?

>> YOU HAVE TO CHANGE THE STRUCTURE.

YOU HAVE TO CHANGE THE STRUCTURE AND ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS I MAKE IN THE EPILOGUE OF THE BOOK IS ONE OF THE FIRST PLACES I WOULD START IS CHANGING THE STRUCTURE OF CONGRESS.

MOST OF YOUR VIEWERS KNOW RIGHT NOW WE ARE STUCK AT 435 CONGRESSMAN, BUT A LOT OF YOUR VIEWERS DON'T KNOW WHY.

THERE IS NOWHERE IN THE CONSTITUTION THAT SAYS CONGRESS CAN ONLY BE 435 PEOPLE.

WE STARTED WITH 90 SOMETHING AND WE QUICKLY WENT TO 137.

WE USED TO ADD CONGRESS PEOPLE EVERY DECENNIAL CENSUS.

EVERYBODY NOW KNOWS YOU DO THE CENSUS AND REAPPORTION LIKE NEW YORK LOSES TWO REPRESENTATIVES TO ARIZONA BUT BEFORE, INSTEAD OF TAKING CONGRESSMAN FROM ONE STATE AND PUTTING THEM IN ANOTHER, WE JUST USED TO ADD MORE CONGRESSMAN.

WE STOPPED DOING THAT IN 1920.

IT ISN'T BECAUSE WE RAN OUT OF CHAIRS OR LOST THE ABILITY TO MAKE A BIGGER ROTUND WE STOPPED DOING IT IN THE 1920s BECAUSE THE 1920 CENSUS WAS THE ONE THAT REALLY SHOWED THE WHITE RULING ELITE THAT THE POWER OF THIS COUNTRY WAS MOVING AWAY FROM THE AGRICULTURAL AND RURAL CENTERS INTO THE URBAN AREAS, YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO ADD A LOT MORE CONGRESSMAN TO REPRESENT A LOT MORE PEOPLE LIVING IN CITIES.

AND PEOPLE GOT SCARED OF THAT.

IF WE HAD JUST KEPT GOING WITH OUR POPULATION INCREASE AND ADDING MORE CONGRESSPEOPLE AND KEEPING THE LEVEL OF PER CAPITA REPRESENTATION, THAT IS, HOW MANY PEOPLE ONE CONGRESSMAN REPRESENTS, AND KEPT IT STEADY FROM THE 20s, WE WOULD HAVE 1200 PEOPLE IN CONGRESS RIGHT NOW.

DO YOU KNOW HOW DIFFERENT OUR SYSTEM LOOKS WITH 1200 CONGRESSMAN INSTEAD OF 435?

IT CHANGES OUR ENTIRE POLICY IF YOU MAKE REPRESENTATION IN CONGRESS, WHICH IS SUPPOSED TO BE THE HOUSE OF PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION IF YOU ACTUALLY MAKE IT PROPORTIONAL.

IT CHANGES THE ENTIRE COUNTRY.

AMERICA IS THE LEAST REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY IN THE WORLD BY THE MEASURE OF PER CAPITA REPRESENTATION.

ONE CONGRESSMAN HERE REPRESENTS ABOUT 760,000 AMERICANS.

THE NEXT LEAST REPRESENTATIVE GOVERNMENT IS JAPAN WHERE ONE MEMBER OF THEIR LOWER HOUSE REPRESENTS AROUND 520,000 JAPANESE PEOPLE.

SO WE ARE OFF THE CHARTS IN TERMS OF AN UNWRAPPED RESENTED OF LACE TO LIVE.

AND WE COULD FIX THAT.

MY SOLUTION IN THE BOOK IS CALLED THE WYOMING PLAN THAT TIES REPRESENTATION OF THE LEAST REPRESENTED OR LEAST POPULOUS STATE.

RIGHT?

NO STATE NO MATTER HOW SMALL GETS ONE CONGRESSMAN.

SO THE IDEA IS THAT EVERY CONGRESSMAN SHOULD REPRESENT THE POPULATION OF THE LEAST POPULOUS STATE.

RIGHT NOW, THAT IS WYOMING WITH 507,000 PEOPLE AND IF YOU MADE EVERY CONGRESSMAN PERSON REPRESENT THAT YOU WOULD HAVE IMMEDIATELY GO AND GET 200 OR 300 MORE CONGRESSMAN.

WE CAN CHANGE THE NUMBER OF REPRESENTATIVES IN CONGRESS A SIMPLE PIECE OF LEGISLATION JUST LIKE WE ARTIFICIALLY LIMITED THE NUMBER OF CONGRESSPEOPLE WITH A PIECE OF LEGISLATION.

>> THE BOOK IS CALLED BAD LAW, 10 POPULAR LAWS THAT ARE RUINING AMERICA.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>> THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP ON THE SHOW EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORGéAMANPOUR.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING ME AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.