(inspiring music) - [Narrator] This is a production of PBS Charlotte.

- This week on "Un-Spun," inside the Oval Office.

Former White House chief of staff Mick Mulvaney knows what it's like being side by side with President Trump, helping to make the big decisions while trying to avoid the big distractions.

We'll talk with Mulvaney about the inner workings of the Trump White House then and now.

Plus, I'll count down the top five power struggles inside the Trump White House now and in the future.

(inspiring music) - [Narrator] In today's America, welcome to the Spin Game.

Believe me, I know.

I'm Pat McCrory.

When I was governor and mayor, I played the spin game.

I was played by the spin game.

But aren't we all done being spun?

Let's take the spin out of the world we're in, here on "Un-Spun."

(inspiring music) Good evening, I'm Pat McCrory, and welcome to "Un-Spun," the show that tells you what politicians are thinking, but not saying.

Coverage of the White House by the networks and the newspapers is pretty much all Trump all the time.

Inside the Oval Office, though, it's not always a one-man show.

- Do you disagree that you've had problems like bringing people into your military?

And do you think that it's respectful to come to the Oval Office of the United States of America and attack the administration that is trying to prevent the destruction of your country?

- Vice President JD Vance was side by side with Trump for those live TV negotiations with the President of Ukraine.

Secretary of State Marco Rubio is a frequent stand-in for Trump on the Sunday talk shows, and Elon Musk is getting much of the public credit and the public protest for Trump's war on government waste.

But sometimes the real power at the White House is wielded by someone the public doesn't see much of on TV.

- Susie, the most powerful woman in the world.

I agree with that.

I agree.

- I'll be brief so you can hear from these amazing people.

Congratulations to everyone on 100 days.

It's unparalleled in my memory.

- Susie Wiles is Trump's Chief of Staff, the first woman to hold that job at the White House.

She's reportedly the President's most trusted advisor, pushing the Trump agenda and protecting the President's reputation, mostly while working behind the scenes and away from the cameras.

So who else helps Trump decide which issues get presidential action, what's shoved aside as a political distraction, and whose voices are heard inside the Oval Office?

That's just one of the jobs that Mulvaney had during the first Trump administration.

He's a former White House Chief of Staff, Trump's former Budget Director, and the former congressman from South Carolina's fifth Congressional District just across the state line from Charlotte.

Nick, it's an honor to have you here on "Un-Spun."

- Pat, happy to be here.

- So at the White House, how do you see the difference between when you were Chief of Staff and how it is now inside the White House?

Is there any big difference on the dynamics?

- Oh, you know, there's probably always gonna be a little bit of difference between a second term and a first term.

In the first term, Trump, you know, paid a lot closer attention to things like approval ratings, and that's what you do in a first term, right?

'cause you're every first term President's trying to always in the back of his mind trying to figure out how to get re-elected.

And I think there's, you know, a little bit different this time around.

I think that the advisors that he got, that he's got this time are probably a little of a different sort.

At least some of them are a different sort.

Keep in mind, Trump didn't really expect to win in 2016.

So the group he threw together at the last minute, some of them worked out and stayed, you know, for a long time like myself, and some of them were gone very quickly.

Rex Tillerson, for example.

And I think it took him a while in the first term to sort of get the team that he wanted.

I think this time around, he's had four years to prepare for this, and I think he's got the team that he wants to begin with.

I also think he's looking for a little bit different qualities in a cabinet sector.

He's looking for people who can deliver his message better on television.

I don't remember ever seeing Rex Tillerson on television.

Marco Rubio is good at it and he is on there a lot.

Jeff Sessions was terrible on television.

Pam Bondi is great on TV.

So I think there's a variety of differences between the two.

And you're seeing some of the differences in the product coming outta the White House.

- Has Trump changed at all since you worked with him closely?

- You know, I've not talked to him in a long time.

I communicated with him via text right after the shooting, but I've not actually talked to the President since January 6th when I resigned.

From watching him on TV, he looks a little older, but aren't we all, I mean, goodness gracious, it's been eight years since he hired me.

I saw him on TV here recently on the overseas trip in the Middle East, and he looks tired and I don't ever remember seeing him look tired during the first term, but generally speaking, no, I think he's probably the same guy.

I don't think you're gonna change somebody.

Well, what's the saying, pat?

You can't teach an old dog new tricks, and I don't think you're gonna change Donald Trump at age 79 or 80, whatever he is.

- Susie Wiles your successor as his Chief of Staff, how do you rate the job she's doing and what is she doing differently than maybe prior chiefs of staff, including you and Mark Meadows?

- Yeah, well, so far so good.

Again, it sounds like they're moving through the process fairly well.

They've had fairly low turnover, which is not too bad.

Look, if the Chief of Staff is doing his or now her job, you're not gonna hear about him, and that's fine.

You don't hear much about Susie Wiles.

And that's the way, it should be, Trump you know, wanted me on television a lot more, but that was a function, Pat, of the fact that we didn't have other people like in the cabinet to go out on television.

Now they do.

So I think Susie's able to work behind the scenes and make sure the building runs properly.

That's one of the first and foremost jobs the Chief of Staff.

Does, can she make the West Wing run properly?

And it sounds like it is so far.

So I've heard nothing but good things and have no reason to think she's anything other than a success so far.

- You say you haven't had any communications with him except for one tweet.

Has anyone from the former administration had any communication with him, or are they all on the sideline?

We know Pence is on the sideline.

You're on the sideline.

Is anyone who was in the old circle in the new circle?

- Oh, sure.

I mean, key mind, Stephen Miller was there the first time around.

Russ Boat was my deputy at OMB.

He's now the, and then I think it was, yeah, in fact, I know he was the OMB director in the last year of the first term.

He's still there.

So they're playing very prominent roles.

Dan Cino is still a senior advisor to the president.

So there's a lot of folks who are still there.

Those mostly are folks in the White House.

The cabinet is, I think the cabinet's entirely new.

I don't think anybody, oh, no, that's not true.

Linda McMahon, that's true.

Was the SBA administrator during the first term and now she's in the cabinet.

So, no, there's a good many folks, and, you know, Pence is sidelined it different than the rest of us.

It's would be very unusual Pat for Chief of Staff to go back into an administration.

- It's only happened once to my knowledge.

And ordinarily once you've been chief of staff, you sort of move on.

Pence has sidelined it a different way.

Their relationship is very sour.

Mike Pence has come up very aggressively against the President in the press.

Which, and that's his call.

I mean, you know, it's, he's the Vice President of the United States, so, I mean, he could do what he wants, but it's, I try and be a little bit more neutral on the president.

You don't wanna, you know, be seen as a cheerleader and you don't wanna be seen as a, as a constant critic.

And keep in mind, the role of the chief of staff is to call things like you see him anyway.

So if there's things you like, you talk about that.

If there's things you don't like, you talk about that.

But I think Mike has been pretty aggressive in his attacks on Trump.

And again, that's his call.

- Some North Carolina news.

We've got an upcoming US Senate race with my former speaker of the House when I was governor Tom Tillis, and he'll be running for his third term.

Do you think Trump is going to endorse him?

And if so, when, or is he gonna hold off because he's already endorsed Lindsey Graham in South Carolina.

How do you see that dynamic going, especially with some of the recent controversy about Tom going against a US attorney election?

- Yeah, you know, it's always hard to tell with Trump.

A lot of that, I would suppose would depend on whether or not any of the names pop up in North Carolina in a Republican primary.

This is what I know, Trump wants Republican control of the Senate.

So if Tom Tillis is the Republican nominee, he's gonna have Donald Trump's support.

Trump learned the hard way during the first term what it means to learn control of the house, excuse me, lose control of the House or the Senate.

Remember in 2017 when he came into office, the Republicans controlled both the House and the Senate.

We lost control of the House in the midterms of 2018, and as a result, Trump got impeached.

So Trump understands now the importance of control of both houses of the legislature.

Keep in mind, if he had lost control of the Senate in 2018, that vote for impeachment would've been very different.

I don't think they would've had the votes to impeach him, but the outcome certainly would've been different.

He's very much aware of that.

He knows, you know, when we lost both Senate races in Georgia, which is just an embarrassment as a party, there's no way that Georgia should have two Democrat senators.

Trump knows that, and he doesn't wanna see the Democrats take that seat.

So what he does in a primary, it's always difficult to sort of anticipate, but at the end of the day, Trump will be there for the Republican nominee in North Carolina.

- So the next presidential election begins when?

And how do those inside the White House, who will be competing for it, the main contenders work for Trump.

How in the heck are they gonna walk this fine line about putting out little tea leaves out there and raising money while Trump's President?

- He's really good about not not showing his hand on that.

My guess is you'll see four or five different people be sort of, you know, floated as the air apparent between now and when was the race start?

I guess the next race starts right after the midterms in 2026.

JD Vance is gonna be on that list.

Marco Rubio is gonna be on that list.

You can go down a whole long list of people who, you know, Ted Cruz wants to be President still.

So Trump would, will probably not commit until very, very, very late.

I will point out that the one name that doesn't seem to get nearly enough attention, somebody who's not even in the cabinet, but was very close to the president, and if she decides to run for president, she'll be a very compelling candidate in Republican primary.

And that's Sarah Huckabee Sanders, the governor of Arkansas.

The President remained very close.

She was a tremendous advisor to him in the first term.

I know that they still speak, and so don't discount her at all, at all.

But there is no heir apparent, and that includes Don Jr.

So Trump will continue to play that out as long as he possibly can.

- Well, you, it's interesting you brought up a family member, whether there's Don Jr, there's Eric, there's Laura.

Do you think that's still a possibility with Trump?

- Anything's possible.

You know, I think it's really hard, since Donald Trump ran for President as a business person and not as a politician, and he won twice.

People seem to think now that you can do that.

He can't do that.

Trump is a one-off in my mind on that.

He is an outlier.

There's only one Donald Trump.

So if you're a, you know, I have, you know, rich CEO businessmen call me all the time and say, do you think I'd be president?

I'm like, no, you can't be.

Well, you know, Donald Trump did.

I said, yeah, and you're not Donald Trump and neither is Don Jr.

Neither is Eric.

Neither is Laura.

They're all very talented people.

Don't get me wrong.

And I thought Laura would've been a very compelling Senate candidate in North Carolina several years ago.

I think she was also considered briefly for the appointed Senate position in Florida.

I think she'd be very capable.

But that doesn't mean that you get to, you know, there's a very bright prospects for you if you decide your first political race is gonna be run for president.

I don't think we'll ever see that again in my lifetime, or maybe in several generations of someone running for president for the very first time as an outsider, a non-elected official and winning maybe a Hollywood movie star, maybe Dwayne the Rock Johnson.

But that's still a stretch.

So no, I think the likely Republican nominee, and the likely Democrat nominee will be some elected official someplace - In the remaining 30 seconds, the Congress has kind of flipped on some issues where Trump has been consistent.

One of 'em is tariffs.

I remember the Club for Growth who endorsed most of the Freedom Caucus in the past was totally anti-tariff.

But there's silence on the issue of tariff among the most conservative members of Congress and the strongest Trump supporters.

How do you see that flip occurring?

- Yeah, politics is a strange thing right now.

My Democrat friends are free traders, and we couldn't get them to vote for a single free trade bill when I was in Congress.

Look, parties change.

They do, you know, people know which way the wind blows.

My, you know, you talk about terrorists, I think there's, I know for a fact there's a lot of Republicans in this town who had raised taxes on, you know, the extreme wealthy.

I know a million a year, 5 million a year, 10 million a year, I don't know.

But this whole, you know, mantra of we'll never raise taxes is long gone in this party.

It's a populous party now, Pat, it's not a conservative party.

So there's not as much philosophical underpinning to the policies.

And I think you continue to see both parties trying to figure out what they be, what they want to be as we move into the middle of the 21st century.

- Nick, it's been great to have you in "Un-Spun," and it's great that you've kept this region your home too.

Thanks so much.

- Thanks Pat.

It's great to see you.

- Next up, PBS Charlotte's Jeff Sonier takes "Un-Spun" on the street asking what you think about the power behind the Presidency inside the Oval Office.

- Yeah, our question this week isn't so much about the President himself, but more about the advice he's getting and the advisors he's getting it from.

(uplifting music) - Everybody that he has picked are hardcore.

They know what job needs to be done as far as the immigration, that kind of thing.

And we're taking hold of it and changing it.

I think that's what the people wanted.

I think that's why we voted on November to reelect him.

- You think he benefits from having been President once before?

- I do.

I think he's moving a lot faster this time and knows that the time is short, and you gotta get on it and do it.

- [Interviewer] With all the decisions he's made so far.

Do you think he's getting good advice from the folks who surround him?

Who advise him?

- No, he kind of seems like he's surrounded by yes men, people are afraid to tell him the truth.

Kind of like, you should have those checks and balances on your president.

The cabinet should be there to, you know, tell him when he is going awry.

It doesn't seem like anyone's willing to do that.

- I think, I think overall the advice has been okay for like, the key positions.

Like, Rubio has been a surprise.

I think he's done a good job.

I think Vance probably gives him good advice.

Some of the others, maybe not.

You know, I think he likes celebrity names.

- I think he has a very seasoned group of people that he takes advice from.

I think it's, you know, he had a tough situation that he came into, and I think that they're doing a good job.

I know a lot of people are thinking maybe things are moving too quick, but the country needs it.

- Yeah, not all advice is good advice, but this time around.

Most agree that the President's getting different advice from a group of advisors more loyal to the White House, and maybe more knowledgeable about those trying to stop the White House.

Pat?

- That's great feedback at the airport.

So what do you think about the issue?

Let us know by tagging PBS Charlotte when you post on social media about this week's show.

Share what you like and don't like about tonight's program.

(uplifting music) Alright, tonight on our "Un-Spun" countdown, the top five potential power struggles inside the Trump White House.

Let's start out with number five.

Number five, Pete Hegseth against Marco Rubio.

It's interesting when you're talking about international affairs, sometime the defense secretary wants to say something, sometimes the Secretary of State wants to say something, but if they don't match, he got big trouble.

Lately, Marco Rubio seems to be in total control.

Number four, Howard Lutnick versus Scott Bessent.

This is interesting, commerce against treasury.

Right now I think the treasury secretary is getting more TV time.

Trump likes his maturity and his consistency in the message, especially during some of the controversial international subjects regarding tariffs.

Number three, Kristi Noem versus Tom Homan.

It's interesting, this is Boston subordinate, the head of Homeland Security, and yet the head of borders, the border czar right now, there's a potential they could start having conflicts.

Trump really likes Tom.

He shows incredible strengths when talking about illegal immigration.

And number two, Susie Wiles versus Donald Trump.

Well, right now, they seem to be getting along great, but every administration sooner or later has conflict between the President and the Chief of Staff.

So far, Suzy's hanging in tough.

And number one, this is a surprise.

This is a shocker.

Mark this down in your history books.

JD Vance, the Vice President who wants to be President, whether he says it or not, he wants to be President.

So does Marco Rubio.

The logic is them fighting.

But there's one other persons that not being talked about, Eric Trump.

(inspiring music) PBS Charlotte's Jeff Sonier joins me now for "Un-Spun."

One on one.

- So when you pick a chief of staff, you pick someone you trust, someone you like.

I guess I would not be on your shorts.

- No, you would not even be even top 100, I understand.

- And I accept that.

- Just accept it.

- Yeah, I do.

- Now, who you try to pick is I actually picked someone I didn't know extremely well, but had a great deal of respect for him.

And he had the opposite strengths that I had.

He was very calm, he was extremely organized.

He was a man of great character.

All the opposite strengths that I had.

And he hung around for four years, but he had a tough job because the chief of staff is a blocker too.

And some of my cabinet officials didn't like being blocked.

And that's what's gonna happen to Susie Wiles sooner or later.

But I'll tell you, she's done a heck of a job, whether you like Trump or not, Suzy Wile has stayed off TV and has stayed out of any drama, which is exactly what Trump needs less of is drama.

So she's a great compliment to him.

- Well, you're almost reading my mind on these questions.

- I haven't seen your questions.

- I know you haven't.

I pulled a quote from Susie Wiles, she doesn't give many interviews, but one quote she gave was, "My team and I will not tolerate backbiting, second-guessing inappropriately, or drama.

These are counterproductive to the mission.

So how do you manage the egos, whether you're Susie Wiles in the White House, or you're Chief of Staff in the Governor's mansion.

How do you you manage all these competitive political egos all supposedly working together, but with their own agendas?

- I think the power Susie Wiles has is the cabinet knows that Susie Wiles is more powerful than any of them with Trump.

So when Susie Wiles probably calls them in a confidential phone call and she says, cut it out, they probably do, or they know they'll be out.

If they're not on Susie Wile's good side, they're not on Trump's good side.

And she obviously has a great deal of influence with Trump, which I think that's why certain people are out already, and certain people are hanging on the ledge, including the defense secretary.

- I was gonna ask you about that.

We've seen at least one top advisor already let go by the President.

Is it trial and error?

I mean, you know, these people, you vetted these people, but until you're in the room with these people, maybe, you know, maybe you don't know if it's gonna work.

- Well, plus you don't know if they'll get along with the other cabinet members.

They might get along with you, but then you start seeing the other cabinet members, like I mentioned in my top five start butting heads.

The real trick will be as we get closer to the Presidential election, which will occur, right after the two term, two year elections for Congress.

Especially if we lose Congress, the Republicans, when I say we, yeah, me as a Republican lose the House or Senate, then some internal warfare could start, especially for President of the United States with both Marco Rubio, JD Vance, and as Mick said, some others.

- So we've talked about the chief of staff as being a gatekeeper.

You know, who gets in the Oval Office.

Who doesn't, who has the Presidency, or how much time do you get?

How important is managing the President's time?

Because that's supposedly his biggest asset.

The time he can give to people and issues.

- It's the most difficult job of the chief of staff, but I think Trump would be the most difficult person to work for.

'cause he never sleeps.

He sleeps three hours a night.

I mean, that's it.

And he'll send out a tweet 11:00, 11:30, the Chief of Staff's probably in bed getting ready to get into work at 7:00 o'clock or 6:30, and is woken up by, oh my gosh, what has been done?

I'm not seeing as much of that as Mick had to deal with when he was chief of staff.

And I think that has to do with the First Lady.

I don't think the First, I think the First Lady has more influence now over Donald Trump than she had in the first term.

- You talked about Trump being, you know, awake all but three hours a day.

The Biden administration was the reverse of that.

You had the chief of staff and the staff protecting him, isolating him.

How much isolation is too much isolation or protection when it comes to, you know, exposing him to points of view or keeping him away from the cameras, that sort of thing?

- I think it's very dangerous to have too much isolation because that means you have staff running the White House.

- Non-elected officials.

And that's what you're seeing in some of the books coming out from CNN and other authors.

Jack Tapper, I believe.

And the question is, who was really the President?

And that's not the first time that's been done in US history.

People question who was the president that was done during Wilson, during the Roosevelt administration.

Near the end, some people were going, who's really running the shows?

And in past history it has often has been the spouse.

- Running the country behind the scenes or the chief of staff.

- A lot of folks thought Jill Biden had a pretty, had the Presidents here on a lot of issues and a lot of things that he was doing while in the White House.

- There's no doubt about it that it seems like Jill Biden had a lot of influence and still does even in the after presidency on how much he communicates.

You saw the appearance on "The View."

And she did more talking than President Biden.

And believe me, the old President Biden wouldn't have let that happen, because I had several dinners with Vice President Biden, and he controlled the whole conversation in those dinners in the White House.

- Last question, kind of a two-parter.

Why do so many chiefs of staff leave before the term is over?

And when you're the governor or the President, how do you know when it's time to let somebody go?

- Usually two reasons.

The first is burnout.

They just don't have any more energy because they have to be there 24 hours a day, and you lose your family.

There's a chance you'll lose your family and your life.

And the second is, it just wears out.

It's kinda like a coach player relationship, and a certain point in time, look at Tom Brady and Belichick.

They won the Super Bowl together, what, six, seven times, and yet six times I believe.

And then they're really not together anymore.

They just, people wear out very similar to a marriage.

- You think that's ever gonna happen with us?

- I think it occurred from the very first show.

I think it's on its way down right now.

- Thank you, governor.

- Thank you very much.

(inspiring music) - In politics, when one party has most of the power, they often wind up with most of the problems too.

Just look at the infighting between the Trump White House and fellow Republicans in Congress or on the Supreme Court, or the lawsuit that was filed when I was governor against members of my own party when they tried to take power away from the governor's office.

But you don't have to go all the way to Washington or Raleigh to find out political power struggles.

Just check out what's happening at the Charlotte City Council.

According to reports on WSOC and WFAE, it all began months ago with back and forth texts between police Chief Johnny Jennings and former city council member Tariq Bokhari.

Bokhari wanted Jennings fired, while the chief claimed Bokhari was ruining his reputation.

Jennings even threatened a possible lawsuit, and the NAACP filed an ethics complaint against Bokhari, but the texts were never released publicly.

Jennings didn't sue after all, and the complaint against Bokhari was dismissed by the city attorney.

So why did the city council still vote privately to pay the chief over $300,000 according to reports for a lawsuit that never existed?

Well, one city council member accuse City Hall of brazen disregard for the rule of law.

The mayor and several other city council members called her out at a press conference saying that the charges of corruption aren't true, and the fraternal order of police is planning a non-confidence vote against the chief.

Wow, what a mess.

And remember, except for Bokhari and one other Republican City council member, everyone else on both sides of this fight are all Democrats fighting each other.

Also, remember, this is a city council election year.

Usually, these one party political battles happen behind closed doors.

Things get said, feelings get hurt.

But now we're finding out that even in private hurt feelings have a price.

And in this case, it's apparently $300,000 with city taxpayer picking up the tab.

Because it's City Hall, the State Capitol or the White House, when one party controls everything but can't control its own members, well, that's when the party's over.

Well, that's the reality as I see it.

I hope you'll come back next week as we tell you what politicians are thinking, but not saying, right here on "Un-Spun."

Goodnight folks.

(inspiring music) - [Narrator] A production of PBS Charlotte.